Allegiant Airlines

[Seggy]

What about pilots under probation if the union strikes? Any hope for them?

Yes a lot of hope.

Usually in the return to work agreement anyone fired is brought back with their seniority restored. Also, in today's internet, we would probably know that these folks have been fired and they wouldn't have any problems finding other jobs quickly.

 

[Seggy]

Say Endeavor was to go on strike. One of the routes Endeavor does would be DTW-ELM. But that same route is also done by ASA/XJT, and say Compass. Suppose Endeavor's flight was the 12pm departure and the 1:50pm return. You can bet Delta will replace this loss of flight by another Connection carrier, say XJT/ASA.

So isn't that flying struck work?

What legal right do the pilots of XJT/ASA (in the example) have to refuse this flight?


When it comes to strike and the regional airline industry, things can get very blurry.

In the example above, yes, that could be struck work.

It would be the definition the carrier gave for what constituted struck work. With Fee For Departure Carriers it usually is a block limit (if Endeavor is out on strike, if Delta increased the block hours by ASA/XJT/Compass to cover the struck work that block hour increase would be struck). Also, they would look to capture the departures scheduled for that carrier when the strike started under the struck work definition.

As I said, there is a strike center set up to handle that and for pilots to call if in doubt!

 

[MikeD]

I am not sure of the situation described above, but at least with an ALPA Carrier, the union can take formal disciplinary procedures against a member (management pilots fall in this umbrella if they are on the seniority list, even if they aren't active). There is a very high bar for these disciplinary procedures. From the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws these charges can be brought for the following purposes...

It is very, very, very rare for discipline to be handed out, or even brought to this point, however, one of the disciplinary results can be to expel the person from the organization. That would open a host of problems for the individual as they could be in violation of the agency shop rules. That would in turn make the pilot not eligible to be on the seniority list, which in turn could put the pilot's career at the airline in jeopardy.

So the answer is 'yes', but would need to follow a very formal procedure. More than likely, the pilot group would just make it known that the individuals wouldn't be welcome on the picket line and they would hope they wouldn't fly, while the group is on strike.

How did the CAL scabs from '83 avoid discipline?

 

[Seggy]

How did the CAL scabs from '83 avoid discipline?

When the IACP merged with ALPA there was a provision that as they were members of IACP no charges would be brought forward based on the 1983 strike.

It was and still is very controversial.

 

[MikeD]

When the IACP merged with ALPA there was a provision that as they were members of IACP no charges would be brought forward based on the 1983 strike.

It was and still is very controversial.

Interesting. Just asking because I never knew the backstory. I could only imagine it would have alot of controversy. Thanks for the info!

 

[Eagle421flyer]

I am not sure of the situation described above, but at least with an ALPA Carrier, the union can take formal disciplinary procedures against a member (management pilots fall in this umbrella if they are on the seniority list, even if they aren't active). ..


.

The problem is that your looking at it from an ALPA perspective. Allegiant isn't one, and to be fair teamsters has done (imo) a good job BUT this is going to fall under no mans land. This (among many other reasons) is why I decided I needed to leave, I could see the writing on the wall and didn't want to be put in the management/pilot/fired position, which had I stayed I would have been.

 

[Seggy]

Interesting. Just asking because I never knew the backstory. I could only imagine it would have alot of controversy. Thanks for the info!

@ATN_Pilot may have more info but the Scabs may have had to pay a fine and back dues though. So they didn't exactly get away free.

There is even more of a backstory but fundamentally the question was, do you punish all Continental Pilots for the action of the minority?

 

[Seggy]

The problem is that your looking at it from an ALPA perspective. Allegiant isn't one, and to be fair teamsters has done (imo) a good job BUT this is going to fall under no mans land. This (among many other reasons) is why I decided I needed to leave, I could see the writing on the wall and didn't want to be put in the management/pilot/fired position, which had I stayed I would have been.

The way I look at it is you had the moral sense that it wasn't going to end well and you did the right thing. You left. If these others managers don't see the writing on the wall and they fly struck work, no sympathy from me. If they do the right thing, don't fly struck work, but get fired, I'm sure they will have no problems finding other jobs.

 

[MikeD]

@ATN_Pilot may have more info but the Scabs may have had to pay a fine and back dues though. So they didn't exactly get away free.

There is even more of a backstory but fundamentally the question was, do you punish all Continental Pilots for the action of the minority?

Even with a fine and some sort or reparations or punishment, how "in good standing" would they really be again? I could easily see the controversy you mention. Tough situation.

Of course not punish all the CAL pilots for the actions(s) of a minority, but would that mean that individual punishments aren't possible, or just exceptionally rare and lengthy process as mentioned before? Just a rhetorical question, as I agree the situation may not be as black/white as people would want or expect it to be when it comes to what to do.

 

[Seggy]

Even with a fine and some sort or reparations or punishment, how "in good standing" would they really be again? I could easily see the controversy you mention. Tough situation.

Of course not punish all the CAL pilots for the actions(s) of a minority, but would that mean that individual punishments aren't possible, or just exceptionally rare and lengthy process as mentioned before? Just a rhetorical question, as I agree the situation may not be as black/white as people would want or expect it to be when it comes to what to do.

If the Scabs weren't forgiven, it's doubtful the CAL pilots would have even been given an opportunity to merge into ALPA because of the way the IACP, their independent union was structured.

It was truly an all or nothing.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

If anyone knows, how many are scabs are still left from the '83 strike? Just curious?

32 years is a long time.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

In the example above, yes, that could be struck work.

It would be the definition the carrier gave for what constituted struck work. With Fee For Departure Carriers it usually is a block limit (if Endeavor is out on strike, if Delta increased the block hours by ASA/XJT/Compass to cover the struck work that block hour increase would be struck). Also, they would look to capture the departures scheduled for that carrier when the strike started under the struck work definition.

As I said, there is a strike center set up to handle that and for pilots to call if in doubt!

Slippery slope. Suppose the ASA block hours are increased. And then if a pilot wants to refuse that DTW-BGM flight, on what grounds would he explain that to ASA?

 

[jtrain609]

If anyone knows, how many are scabs are still left from the '83 strike? Just curious?

32 years is a long time.

Well, there's the 777 left seat in Newark to start...

 

[MikeD]

If anyone knows, how many are scabs are still left from the '83 strike? Just curious?

32 years is a long time.

Well, there's the 777 left seat in Newark to start...

With the Age 65 ruling, may be a fair number of them left.

Which begs another question of interest: How has the UAL pilot group been regarding the merging of these CAL scabs (former scabs?) into one seniority list, and now flying with them? I can't imagine that its not known who they are? And I would imagine there'd be some with severe heartburn about it. Or is it a "that's history, look forward not back" kind of thing I wonder.

 

[Seggy]

Slippery slope. Suppose the ASA block hours are increased. And then if a pilot wants to refuse that DTW-BGM flight, on what grounds would he explain that to ASA?

Nope, not really.

I bet there is a clause in the ASA contract that basically says 'pilots won't be punished for flying struck work'.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Slippery slope. Suppose the ASA block hours are increased. And then if a pilot wants to refuse that DTW-BGM flight, on what grounds would he explain that to ASA?

You call the strike center end of story. Whatever strike center says goes. No one explains anything to ASA. Delta wouldn't put thenselves in that sort of a situation purposefully.

Call. The. Strike. Center.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

But a guy at Falcon is employed by Falcon and his company is a non-sked carrier that relies on finding contract work from other airlines and operators. So if they get flights and a guy is operating his own metal and Falcon is not on strike, then? Moreso, on what legal grounds can a pilot refuse this flight? It sounds like guys called in sick before Ono and then he was next in line and flew. Suppose the guys that called in sick then subsequently get fired, now what? You can pretend like everyone will know why they were fired but I don't see Delta, United, or AA knocking on their doors anytime soon.


It sounds like resign, get fired, or fly contract work which was obtained from Spirit.

The first two are a lot easier said then to accept. Yes, we all hate scabs but never forget it's a dog/eat/dog world and people will do anything to get ahead.

Scabs are a byproduct of the seniority system. And look where those '83 Continental scabs are now.

 

[amorris311]

But a guy at Falcon is employed by Falcon and his company is a non-sked carrier that relies on finding contract work from other airlines and operators. So if they get flights and a guy is operating his own metal and Falcon is not on strike, then? Moreso, on what legal grounds can a pilot refuse this flight? It sounds like guys called in sick before Ono and then he was next in line and flew. Suppose the guys that called in sick then subsequently get fired, now what? You can pretend like everyone will know why they were fired but I don't see Delta, United, or AA knocking on their doors anytime soon.


It sounds like resign, get fired, or fly contract work which was obtained from Spirit.

The first two are a lot easier said then to accept. Yes, we all hate scabs but never forget it's a dog/eat/dog world and people will do anything to get ahead.

Scabs are a byproduct of the seniority system. And look where those '83 Continental scabs are now.

You enjoy walking a fine line don't you?

Look where the '83 scabs are? What does that even mean? Are you justifying their poor decision making because they have high seniority? What exactly are you trying to say?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You enjoy walking a fine line don't you?

Look where the '83 scabs are? What does that even mean? Are you justifying their poor decision making because they have high seniority? What exactly are you trying to say?

It means what it means. Their poor decision making led them to a significantly enhanced career. No one is saying it's right but it did not hurt them. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Welp this thread went sideways. Don't scab kids, even if the biggest pariah on the interwebs thinks he can figure out a way to make it work in his head.

Trust me on the sunscreen and the scabbin.