All you aerobatics guys, I've got a question

WacoFan said:
+1
Nice airplanes and "bigger" than most of the baby biplanes. Attractive as well. Neat machines. I think they would compare very favorable to a Great Lakes on the same power (180hp) but that depends completely on the weight of both airplanes. I can't stress my bias enough - a light airplane is a good airplane. You can cram all the horsepower you want into an airframe - but I still believe in building as light as possible.
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I agree completely with a lighter airplane is a better airplane. However, a Skybolt would be a good first build I believe. I also like the Pitts M14, but I'm having trouble finding good information on the build. Can anyone shed any light on the Pitts M14?
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
The Skybolt (180hp) is going to fall between a Great Lakes and a Pitts S2A in performance.
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And if you're looking Skybolt, then it would probably behove one to look at a Marquart Charger and a PJ-260. I knew a guy with a PJ-260 and he liked it a lot. The "PJ" stood for Parsons, as in Lindsey Parsons and the "J" standing for Jocelyn as in Rod Jocelyn - both Parson's and Jocelyn being stud aerobatics guys a long time ago.
 
So my wife bought me the Basic and Advnaced Aerobatics books you guys recomended. I just finished reading the section on inverted spins in the basic book. I understand inverted flight fine but what I don't understand is that the book says to recover from the inverted spin you have to apply rudder opposite the yaw... That make sense, but then goes on to say that rudder opposite yaw is rudder in the direction of rotation. My brain tripped over itself when I read that. I can't understand how if I put rudder into the spin it will recover. When they talk about the inverted spin direction do they mean the direction looking down from above or from inside the airplane?

I have done hundreds of spins right side up and it makes perfect sense that to recover from an inverted spin you have to pull back to unstall the wing, but in an inverted spin I don't understand how adding rudder anywhere but opposite the rotation, relative to me in the plane, will allow me to recover. I hope I just misunderstood and he was talking about looking at a spin from a perspective above, not in the airplane, but please help...

Thanks
 
It's been years since I've read that book but I have never heard anyone say go rudder into the direction of the turn to recover. Inverted spins follow the same aerodynamic principals as an upright. Opposite rudder to stop auto rotation. Then elevator to reduce angle of attack to break the stall.
 
Inverted said:
It's been years since I've read that book but I have never heard anyone say go rudder into the direction of the turn to recover. Inverted spins follow the same aerodynamic principals as an upright. Opposite rudder to stop auto rotation. Then elevator to reduce angle of attack to break the stall.
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Thank God I still know how to fly! lol...


I knew I had to be right about that but as always wanted some back up. Thanks man
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
So my wife bought me the Basic and Advnaced Aerobatics books you guys recomended. I just finished reading the section on inverted spins in the basic book. I understand inverted flight fine but what I don't understand is that the book says to recover from the inverted spin you have to apply rudder opposite the yaw... That make sense, but then goes on to say that rudder opposite yaw is rudder in the direction of rotation. My brain tripped over itself when I read that. I can't understand how if I put rudder into the spin it will recover. When they talk about the inverted spin direction do they mean the direction looking down from above or from inside the airplane?

I have done hundreds of spins right side up and it makes perfect sense that to recover from an inverted spin you have to pull back to unstall the wing, but in an inverted spin I don't understand how adding rudder anywhere but opposite the rotation, relative to me in the plane, will allow me to recover. I hope I just misunderstood and he was talking about looking at a spin from a perspective above, not in the airplane, but please help...

Thanks
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My experience in the Pitts has been that you don't even really need any rudder to recover from any spin... and too much can really get you in trouble. I got my Pitts checkout from Bill Finagin and his method is for any departure... power idle, forcefully neutralize the controls, wait for the airspeed, gently pull.

Works everytime in that airplane... part of his checkout is making you close your eyes... he gets into the most disorienting series of maneuvers that end with a departure of some kind. He says "Open your eyes, and recover". Do those steps and it recovers everytime with maybe a 500-700' altitude loss at the most. The thing with the flat spins and that technique.. is that flat spins are generally slower rotations, so it will cross through an upright spin... which has a tighter rotation... but then stops. It's a pretty weird feeling.. but works out pretty well.
 
With the airplane upright, when you apply left rudder the rudder deflects to the left. Now invert the airplane and look at it from the outside. That rudder that was deflected to the left is now physically deflected to the right when the airplane is inverted, even though relative to you seated in the airplane you are still applying pressure on the left rudder pedal.

Hope that helps.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
With the airplane upright, when you apply left rudder the rudder deflects to the left. Now invert the airplane and look at it from the outside. That rudder that was deflected to the left is now physically deflected to the right when the airplane is inverted, even though relative to you seated in the airplane you are still applying pressure on the left rudder pedal.

Hope that helps.
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That is was I am sure he meant in the book... I felt stupid asking but with every other senario he explainer from a reference of the pilot inside the airplane and never mentioned that in spins he switched to an outside reference... When I read something new like this I try to enter it with trying to cloud new knowledge with what I already know. I just wanted to make sure thats what he meant and I wasn't missing something.. Feel kinda dumb for asking now though
 
ryan1234 said:
My experience in the Pitts has been that you don't even really need any rudder to recover from any spin... and too much can really get you in trouble. I got my Pitts checkout from Bill Finagin and his method is for any departure... power idle, forcefully neutralize the controls, wait for the airspeed, gently pull.

Works everytime in that airplane... part of his checkout is making you close your eyes... he gets into the most disorienting series of maneuvers that end with a departure of some kind. He says "Open your eyes, and recover". Do those steps and it recovers everytime with maybe a 500-700' altitude loss at the most. The thing with the flat spins and that technique.. is that flat spins are generally slower rotations, so it will cross through an upright spin... which has a tighter rotation... but then stops. It's a pretty weird feeling.. but works out pretty well.
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great info
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
That is was I am sure he meant in the book... I felt stupid asking but with every other senario he explainer from a reference of the pilot inside the airplane and never mentioned that in spins he switched to an outside reference... When I read something new like this I try to enter it with trying to cloud new knowledge with what I already know. I just wanted to make sure thats what he meant and I wasn't missing something.. Feel kinda dumb for asking now though
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It's not a dumb question. That stuff gets confusing. I know what book you're reading and he doesn't do a very good job of explaining it. Take the inverted spin, for example. If you enter from inverted, with slow deceleration, apply left rudder & full forward stick to enter the spin. The airplane will appear to yaw and depart to the left from the pilots point of view. If you were observing the aircraft from outside it would be yawing to the right. Why does this matter? If you were to fly competition aerobatics and/or airshows where spin entry direction was important, this would matter. I think that's where the author is coming from.

As far as spin recovery goes...
Remove the aggravation: Power Idle, Aileron Neutral
Start Recovery: OPPOSITE RUDDER, stick through Neutral. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use rudder for spin recovery. There is no quicker way to recover from a spin.
When rotation stops, rudder neutral.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
It's not a dumb question. That stuff gets confusing. I know what book you're reading and he doesn't do a very good job of explaining it. Take the inverted spin, for example. If you enter from inverted, with slow deceleration, apply left rudder & full forward stick to enter the spin. The airplane will appear to yaw and depart to the left from the pilots point of view. If you were observing the aircraft from outside it would be yawing to the right. Why does this matter? If you were to fly competition aerobatics and/or airshows where spin entry direction was important, this would matter. I think that's where the author is coming from.

As far as spin recovery goes...
Remove the aggravation: Power Idle, Aileron Neutral
Start Recovery: OPPOSITE RUDDER, stick through Neutral. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use rudder for spin recovery. There is no quicker way to recover from a spin.
When rotation stops, rudder neutral.
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Yep yep... That makes sense that he is explaining it from some one on the grounds perspective. Thanks guys
 
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