All you aerobatics guys, I've got a question

WacoFan said:
Great point - I mean, how many pilots out there can REALLY utilize everything a Pitts can offer? Sure, if you're competing in Advanced or Unlimited you need the monoplane, but how many people really do that? My question has always been this - The Zivco Edge (and other monoplanes) have gobs of power, etc and seem to be cleaner that the Sukhoi with its blunt round engine - yet Sukhoi's still seem to win most of the international awards. Why is that? Is it just that the eastern bloc pilots are better, or is the Sukhoi really that superior? It would seem that an Edge could do anything a Sukhoi would do - but the Sukhoi's still win - why is that?

And, Svetlana Kapinina gives me actions in my pants.
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I thoroughly enjoy logical conversations like this... If I was ever good enough I think I would really enjoy competing or flying in Air Shows as a hobby or side job but I don't think I would need anything more than a Pitts. An old college buddy and I used to have plans of buying two T6 Texans and doing dog fight demonstrations at airshows, I think I would enjoy the Pitts more though. Not to mention it is cheaper up front, and cheaper to operate.

Waco I don't think you could keep up with Svetlana but I completely understand what you mean.
 
I've seen a couple of S2B's on Barnstormers for $80-90k, and from what I could tell they weren't worn out flight school planes either. S1-11Bs are nice and look good, but if I wanted the best performing Pitts I would go with an S2S. There's a reason Jim Leroy, Sean D. Tucker, Skip Stewart and many top performing airshow pilots fly the S2S. Of course, if I robbed a bank and had the cash, I would pay Steve Wolf to build me a WolfPitts Pro.



Ollie said:
The Pitts is significantly draggier than any of the unlimited class composite monoplanes and therefore carries less energy into the vertical plane.

That being said it takes a lot of skill to maximize the performance envelope of any of those machines. Chances are that, unless you're planning on competing at the national level or above, the performance advantages of a monoplane over a Pitts won't be worth the cash. Plus, the Pitts is a classic airplane that has earned 50+ years of endearing commentary by pilots from all backgrounds. It's got the soul and personality that an Extra doesn't.
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:yeahthat:

The drag in the Pitts does hurt it's vertical penetration, but on the other hand, when it's coming back down on a 45 degree downline or the like, that drag helps keep the plane from running away and winding up the airspeed indicator like the slick monoplanes do.

Sean D. explains why he flies a biplane and not a dumb ghey monoplane:

[YT]MEJmMdXt9mQ[/YT]

I would advise in getting you some time in a Super D or milder aerobatic aircraft first. The Super D is a nice, fun, yet pleasant aircraft to fly. My first handful of flights in the S2B were like 'THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CRAZY!!" It just seemed like a BUNCH, almost TOO MUCH work to fly the airplane, let alone attempt to land it. Granted, I didn't have much experience and no tail wheel time, I pretty much jumped in the deep end of the pool, it kinda took the fun out of it. Before getting in the Pitts I always thought, "I'm gonna own one of those and fly it like crazy." Those couple of flights just about changed my mind to "That's way too much work to fly an airplane and I don't want nothing to do with it."

But now, I'm half owner in a modified S1S that's in the process of being built. :D

Sites worth checking out:
www.airbum.com
www.biplaneforum.com
 
WacoFan said:
Great point - I mean, how many pilots out there can REALLY utilize everything a Pitts can offer? Sure, if you're competing in Advanced or Unlimited you need the monoplane, but how many people really do that? My question has always been this - The Zivco Edge (and other monoplanes) have gobs of power, etc and seem to be cleaner that the Sukhoi with its blunt round engine - yet Sukhoi's still seem to win most of the international awards. Why is that? Is it just that the eastern bloc pilots are better, or is the Sukhoi really that superior? It would seem that an Edge could do anything a Sukhoi would do - but the Sukhoi's still win - why is that?

And, Svetlana Kapinina gives me actions in my pants.
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The Sukhoi's have such a high roll rate, I believe they are still higher than any other competition monoplane. They can do really impressive maneuvers, have more than enough power to hang from the prop etc. I think another factor is that Extra has not had something to really compete next to the Sukhoi in any real capacity in World's or any other big time competition. Plus everyone is seasoned in the Sukhoi, the Zivko is relatively young.
 
SO obviously Tuckers plane is deckerd out with all the Wolfe conversions but I keep hearing of 8 ailerons and in all the videos I have seen I can only count 4... Whats up?

And I can't help but wonder if the S1-11B is the best then why do all the Pitts "Greats" fly modified S2S?
 
You want roll rate? It's not a Biplane but....

0964778.jpg



Giles 202... Good potential competition/airshow airplane, 6cyl performance on 4cyl fuel burn, 500 degree/sec roll rate and you can fly advanced in it.

Roll rate is important for high performance airshow routine because it will bring a lot of energy to the show. Depending on your routine, ability and how many shows you fly your first season your ACE will probably restrict your waiver to 800 or 500 ft. Any high energy vertical pull in a high performance acro plane from 500+ will put you in the stratosphere from a spectator's view. In the beginning, lots of rolls, inverted flight, snap rolls, spins & tumbles, knife edge flight will still show well front of the crowd at higher altitudes. Stay away from flying a competition aerobatic sequence. That will put everyone to sleep. That only works of you're low performance, up close & flying a vintage barnstorming routine. Just think how much more exciting it is to see a Stearman do an Immelmann than an Extra 300.

For competition, get something that you can at least take to intermediate. With no prior experience it will take few years to get here. Soon you be asking to yourself, "Why do I keep flying the contests where everyone just scribbles on paper how bad I just flew. When I could be flying more airshows where I can fly as crazy as I want, no one cares if my loop wasn't perfectly round and everyone is cheering when I get back on the ground?" I'll tell you what, nothing beats the feeling you get the first time you get to do an inverted pass at 500ft in front of the FAA, and there's NOTHING they can do about it!
 
Theres 8. If you look closely theres four on the top wing and four on the bottom wing. Someone mentioned earlier that Sean flies a S2S and thats not true. The planes he has flown for about the last 10 years now have nothing in common with the pitts other than the fact they are a small biplane. He talked about this at oshkosh two years ago. He has had custom built biplanes for the past decade. He said it got to the point he had got everything he could out of the pitts airframe and that he needed more so he started from scratch. You couldnt buy a plane like his. His latest one is estimated to cost over 500,000 to build.
 
Inverted25 said:
Theres 8. If you look closely theres four on the top wing and four on the bottom wing. Someone mentioned earlier that Sean flies a S2S and thats not true. The planes he has flown for about the last 10 years now have nothing in common with the pitts other than the fact they are a small biplane. He talked about this at oshkosh two years ago. He has had custom built biplanes for the past decade. He said it got to the point he had got everything he could out of the pitts airframe and that he needed more so he started from scratch. You couldnt buy a plane like his. His latest one is estimated to cost over 500,000 to build.
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That clears that up. The S1-11B is the best then... Is the S1-11 a step up from the model 11 Super Stinker? I think that when the time comes though the S2C, if there isn't a newer model out will be for me... Inverted I know theschool you work at has one. Any idea what tthe S2C and the S1-11B go for new factory assembled?
 
Giles 202... Good potential competition/airshow airplane, 6cyl performance on 4cyl fuel burn, 500 degree/sec roll rate and you can fly advanced in it.
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Problem with the Giles is that its very hard to get your hands on one. Last I checked just over 20 of the 202 models were built.
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
That clears that up. The S1-11B is the best then... Is the S1-11 a step up from the model 11 Super Stinker? I think that when the time comes though the S2C, if there isn't a newer model out will be for me... Inverted I know theschool you work at has one. Any idea what tthe S2C and the S1-11B go for new factory assembled?
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the S-1-11B to my knowledge is no longer produced. You can probably get a new Pitts S2C for a bit over 200k from the factory.
 
Inverted25 said:
Someone mentioned earlier that Sean flies a S2S and thats not true. The planes he has flown for about the last 10 years now have nothing in common with the pitts other than the fact they are a small biplane. He talked about this at oshkosh two years ago. He has had custom built biplanes for the past decade. He said it got to the point he had got everything he could out of the pitts airframe and that he needed more so he started from scratch. You couldnt buy a plane like his. His latest one is estimated to cost over 500,000 to build.
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Sean did fly an S2S YEARS ago. As you said, now he flies his custom built Challengers.

I'm having a hard time swallowing the $500k number. His plane is still mostly wood and fabric. Granted, I do believe his tail section is now made out of carbon fiber, that's still no where close to the amount of carbon fiber, titanium, and all the other "precious metals" and carbon fiber that come in a 540, or MX2 and they're not up over the $500k mark. Unless Steve Wolf charges an ungodly amount of money for his time and expertise, or he just gets away charging that much to one of the world's largest software companies, Oracle. I know he has nice products and mods and the guy is pretty smart, but come on... $500k for a single seat, wood and fabric airshow plane? There's not THAT much to that plane.
 
Inverted said:
the S-1-11B to my knowledge is no longer produced. You can probably get a new Pitts S2C for a bit over 200k from the factory.
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Looking at Aviat's Pitts overview site it appears as though you may still be able to purchase plans and components for the S-1-11B.

I think that the main reason the S-1-11B never really received many accolades from the hardcore aerobatic crowd is because it's got a curvy-looking fuselage which makes it difficult for judges to score its maneuvers. The other reason is that everybody's so cracked out on monoplanes right now...
 
Inverted said:
the S-1-11B to my knowledge is no longer produced. You can probably get a new Pitts S2C for a bit over 200k from the factory.
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IF they don't produce the S1-11B or the S2S are there any Single seat pitts still factory produced. I think you can still get the plans and parts to build both the S2s and the S1-11B at home but I don't think I am up for that.
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
IF they don't produce the S1-11B or the S2S are there any Single seat pitts still factory produced. I think you can still get the plans and parts to build both the S2s and the S1-11B at home but I don't think I am up for that.
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To my knowledge, they are not putting out S1's anymore. Only the S2B and S2C, I'm not sure about the S2A or not. The price tag on a new S2C down at Sun 'n Fun last year was around $330k.

You can find quite a few of the S1's for sale. You may be able to find one tucked away in a hangar somewhere for a really good price if your lucky. Steen Aero Labs at http://www.steenaero.com/PittsS1/ has plans, fuselages, wings, cables, nuts, bolts, the whole works. You can pretty much build a new Pitts S1 from their website.

However, you can pick up a Pitts S1C in the $20k range off of Barnstormers or elsewhere. Spend a little bit more in the $40k range and you can step up to a modified 180hp+ S1S Pitts.

To quote Budd Davisson;

A light, 160 hp S-1C would be more airplane than 95% of the pilot population could ever use to the limit of its capabilities.
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Who's to say you have jump in the deep end of the pool first? Most novice bike riders don't go buy the Suzuki Hayabusa or GSX-R1000 as their first bike.
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
IF they don't produce the S1-11B or the S2S are there any Single seat pitts still factory produced. I think you can still get the plans and parts to build both the S2s and the S1-11B at home but I don't think I am up for that.
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The S2C comes in 3 different configurations, dual cockpit, single, and open cockpit believe it or not. Bill Cornick has a single seat S2C.
D02.JPG
 
Okie_Pilot said:
To my knowledge, they are not putting out S1's anymore. Only the S2B and S2C, I'm not sure about the S2A or not. The price tag on a new S2C down at Sun 'n Fun last year was around $330k.

You can find quite a few of the S1's for sale. You may be able to find one tucked away in a hangar somewhere for a really good price if your lucky. Steen Aero Labs at http://www.steenaero.com/PittsS1/ has plans, fuselages, wings, cables, nuts, bolts, the whole works. You can pretty much build a new Pitts S1 from their website.

However, you can pick up a Pitts S1C in the $20k range off of Barnstormers or elsewhere. Spend a little bit more in the $40k range and you can step up to a modified 180hp+ S1S Pitts.

To quote Budd Davisson;



Who's to say you have jump in the deep end of the pool first? Most novice bike riders don't go buy the Suzuki Hayabusa or GSX-R1000 as their first bike.
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The S2C is the only factory produced Pitts. The B was phased out for the C.
 
Inverted said:
The S2C comes in 3 different configurations, dual cockpit, single, and open cockpit believe it or not. Bill Cornick has a single seat S2C.
D02.JPG
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Bill's is actually a standard S2C with single pilot canopy and a cover over the front hole. Still a 2 seater.

What's interesting is that under type design, the Pitts has an open cockpit. The canopy system is an add on.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
Bill's is actually a standard S2C with single pilot canopy and a cover over the front hole. Still a 2 seater.

What's interesting is that under type design, the Pitts has an open cockpit. The canopy system is an add on.
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Ya I should have made it clear sorry. The model is equipped to handle each configuration. So you can have the 2 seater, configure it for single seat, or open cockpit.
 
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