All you aerobatics guys, I've got a question

The Pitts s2b will tumble great if you kick it at 140 mph. You can get a couple good ones out of her...Next thing to try is a centrifuge, spiraling tower, flip top, torque roll, knife edge spin and double hammerhead which are gyroscopics that can all be done in a plain S2B with the MT prop addition.
 
SO my next question is..... What are the maint. costs on the Pitts, with all of those loads I can't imagine that TBO on the engine would be very high, and since its an aero engine I am assumine that means mucho money too. Is the Fabric wing affected by the loads too. How much does it cost to have it recovered and painted?
 
SO my next question is..... What are the maint. costs on the Pitts, with all of those loads I can't imagine that TBO on the engine would be very high, and since its an aero engine I am assumine that means mucho money too. Is the Fabric wing affected by the loads too. How much does it cost to have it recovered and painted?

The Great Lakes I fly just got a new engine. The old one started producing all kinds of metallic shiny objects in the oil filter. Some big enough for a part number to fit on, so it was time. Factory reman AEIO-360, and all other necessary work ran about $45k. Its still covered in cotton so with regular use we cant see it lasting much more than another year. So fabric work & paint $30k... A Pitts has less surface area so it might be cheaper, but fabric work is 90% labor.

If you're looking at S2Bs there still might be some out there with the original cotton cover. This is both good and bad (mostly bad)... Good in that the airframe has probably seen little use because cotton isnt really supposed to last more than 10 years (assuming that fabric is in good shape) also a good way to pick up a cheaper airplane... Bad, in that the engine hasn't been run like it should and has been sitting. Bad in that as soon as you really start to fly it, the cotton is going to start to come apart because all that is really holding it together is the finish. Make sure you invest in roll of duct tape in case large sections start to depart the airplane. Game over if you're at a contest.
 
The Great Lakes I fly just got a new engine. The old one started producing all kinds of metallic shiny objects in the oil filter. Some big enough for a part number to fit on, so it was time. Factory reman AEIO-360, and all other necessary work ran about $45k. Its still covered in cotton so with regular use we cant see it lasting much more than another year. So fabric work & paint $30k... A Pitts has less surface area so it might be cheaper, but fabric work is 90% labor.

Factory remans are alot more than having it done at a respectable engine shop. Just something to consider. I know a few guys who are A&Ps who rebuild their own engines so they can guartee that its a quality job. This will be considerably cheaper because you wont be paying labor but you better know what your doing. Fabric work isnt hard to learn to do yourself. They have some good workshops at Oshkosh every year on how to do it.
 
The Great Lakes I fly just got a new engine. The old one started producing all kinds of metallic shiny objects in the oil filter. Some big enough for a part number to fit on, so it was time. Factory reman AEIO-360, and all other necessary work ran about $45k. Its still covered in cotton so with regular use we cant see it lasting much more than another year. So fabric work & paint $30k... A Pitts has less surface area so it might be cheaper, but fabric work is 90% labor.

If you're looking at S2Bs there still might be some out there with the original cotton cover. This is both good and bad (mostly bad)... Good in that the airframe has probably seen little use because cotton isnt really supposed to last more than 10 years (assuming that fabric is in good shape) also a good way to pick up a cheaper airplane... Bad, in that the engine hasn't been run like it should and has been sitting. Bad in that as soon as you really start to fly it, the cotton is going to start to come apart because all that is really holding it together is the finish. Make sure you invest in roll of duct tape in case large sections start to depart the airplane. Game over if you're at a contest.

Generally true, but I wouldn't shy away from an airplane that's been covered in Grade-A. Depends upon a lot of factors. My Grandpa's cabin Waco was covered with Grade-A and it lasted from 1967 until it finally failed the punch-test in 1987-88. The airplane was kept in a hanger, with the exception of residing outside at numerous flyins for weekends. The airplane was dark-green, to the point of looking black at a distance greater than 10 feet - and dark colors show wear and aging worse in my view. After 20 or so years, the airplane started to get some checking and cracks at various spots, but still looked incredibly good and "wet" (it had a 30 coat, hand-rubbed dope finish). Generally you are absolutely correct, but cotton CAN be made to last a long time. He also bought a Chief that was covered in Grade-A, and it was doggy looking when he bought it in 1974 - (think fabric the consistancy of a tennis ball - fuzzy) - but it passed punch tests until 1986 - and I don't know how long it had been covered by the time he bought it. That was a handy airplane because I learned how to patch fabric and got lots of practice at it. Grandpa said it was a novel approach and if the plane had passed a couple more punch tests I could have basically recovered the entire machine - one patch at a time.
 
No one said it was cheap lol I would go with a four cylinder airplane such as the christen eagle or giles to keep cost down on the engine overhauls.
 
No one said it was cheap lol I would go with a four cylinder airplane such as the christen eagle or giles to keep cost down on the engine overhauls.

Get a little one-hole Pitts off of Barnstormers. Hell, I'd go with a low HP Pitts S1C if you find one - light, about 125-150 HP and cheap. Make sure its built well and then fly the hell out of it. Compete in it and then sell and move to an S1S or better. You don't have to start at the top, and maybe starting lower and moving up will grow your skills faster. If you buy the S1C right you will not lose much, or any of your investment.
 
Get a little one-hole Pitts off of Barnstormers. Hell, I'd go with a low HP Pitts S1C if you find one - light, about 125-150 HP and cheap. Make sure its built well and then fly the hell out of it. Compete in it and then sell and move to an S1S or better. You don't have to start at the top, and maybe starting lower and moving up will grow your skills faster. If you buy the S1C right you will not lose much, or any of your investment.

:yeahthat:

Awesome advise. You can have a really nice long-fuselage S1C for $17k if you keep a sharp eye out. Make sure you bring it to the National Biplane Fly In!
 
Generally true, but I wouldn't shy away from an airplane that's been covered in Grade-A. Depends upon a lot of factors. My Grandpa's cabin Waco was covered with Grade-A and it lasted from 1967 until it finally failed the punch-test in 1987-88. The airplane was kept in a hanger, with the exception of residing outside at numerous flyins for weekends. The airplane was dark-green, to the point of looking black at a distance greater than 10 feet - and dark colors show wear and aging worse in my view. After 20 or so years, the airplane started to get some checking and cracks at various spots, but still looked incredibly good and "wet" (it had a 30 coat, hand-rubbed dope finish). Generally you are absolutely correct, but cotton CAN be made to last a long time. He also bought a Chief that was covered in Grade-A, and it was doggy looking when he bought it in 1974 - (think fabric the consistancy of a tennis ball - fuzzy) - but it passed punch tests until 1986 - and I don't know how long it had been covered by the time he bought it. That was a handy airplane because I learned how to patch fabric and got lots of practice at it. Grandpa said it was a novel approach and if the plane had passed a couple more punch tests I could have basically recovered the entire machine - one patch at a time.

The cotton on the Lakes is over 30 years old, still looks great and passed the last punch test. Although the last year is the first of it's life where it's seen heavy acro use. We keep it under 5gs and no snap rolls (no center section mod) to make it last. That'll get the owner and I through Sportsman this season and what ever local airshow I can get. What's really odd is there's no warping of the rudder or elevator from shrinkage yet, so that's a good sign.
 
Get a little one-hole Pitts off of Barnstormers. Hell, I'd go with a low HP Pitts S1C if you find one - light, about 125-150 HP and cheap. Make sure its built well and then fly the hell out of it. Compete in it and then sell and move to an S1S or better. You don't have to start at the top, and maybe starting lower and moving up will grow your skills faster. If you buy the S1C right you will not lose much, or any of your investment.

:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat:
 
Get a little one-hole Pitts off of Barnstormers. Hell, I'd go with a low HP Pitts S1C if you find one - light, about 125-150 HP and cheap. Make sure its built well and then fly the hell out of it. Compete in it and then sell and move to an S1S or better. You don't have to start at the top, and maybe starting lower and moving up will grow your skills faster. If you buy the S1C right you will not lose much, or any of your investment.

X3
 
Basically, its a Pitts with about a 10 foot larger wing span and lots more room. It doesn't have the performance of the Pitts but it does have a better G loading (-4.5). My grandpa built one of the earliest ones in the 70s with a 180hp but I'm sure it would be a lot more lively with the IO-540. It would be for the average akro user not looking for the extreme edge of aerobatics. Has more x-country capability as well.
 
Basically, its a Pitts with about a 10 foot larger wing span and lots more room. It doesn't have the performance of the Pitts but it does have a better G loading (-4.5). My grandpa built one of the earliest ones in the 70s with a 180hp but I'm sure it would be a lot more lively with the IO-540. It would be for the average akro user not looking for the extreme edge of aerobatics. Has more x-country capability as well.

+1
Nice airplanes and "bigger" than most of the baby biplanes. Attractive as well. Neat machines. I think they would compare very favorable to a Great Lakes on the same power (180hp) but that depends completely on the weight of both airplanes. I can't stress my bias enough - a light airplane is a good airplane. You can cram all the horsepower you want into an airframe - but I still believe in building as light as possible.
 
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