Alaska BNA-SEA takeoff abort

Inverted said:
You’re also talking about minimal impact if they don’t. If Spirit closes its doors tomorrow, the needle of impact l travel will barely move. Somebody will absorb that flying or they won’t.
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Sorry that doesn’t compute. If Spirit’s demise is minimal impact, then there was zero reason to not let JetBlue buy them. Clearly, the govt felt value in a standalone Spirit.

All moot, the govt’s point of saving ULCC failed as Soirit adopted a 4 tier fare system. The ULCC model is dead, and not a darn thing the gobermint could do about it.



That’s why I have a problem with the whole thing. They allowed the big 4 to control 85%. Now they want grow some balls and stop the rest.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Sorry that doesn’t compute. If Spirit’s demise is minimal impact, then there was zero reason to not let JetBlue buy them. Clearly, the govt felt value in a standalone Spirit.

All moot, the govt’s point of saving ULCC failed as Soirit adopted a 4 tier fare system. The ULCC model is dead, and not a darn thing the gobermint could do about it.



That’s why I have a problem with the whole thing. They allowed the big 4 to control 85%. Now they want grow some balls and stop the rest.
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Eliminating a business model willingly and publicly is one thing. If the airline shrivels and dies is another. Spirit and that business model is still here, but the ULCC business model at least for the time being, no longer works. Free market and capitolism will solve this problem but having one airline say they will be the decider of eliminating a form of travel willingly, would absolutely flag the DOJ, and it did...

If you look at post-deregulation mergers, the majority of them were merged under bankruptcies. You could argue that buying a bankrupt airline is saving that airline, no matter what capacity of flying they do. That is really how we got here. In fact, one of the only mergers (that matters) that I can think of that wasn't during a bankruptcy was Delta and Northwest. If you can argue that it is good for the traveling public, then chances are it will get approved. The DOJ has approved much more than it has denied.
 
Inverted said:
Eliminating a business model willingly and publicly is one thing. If the airline shrivels and dies is another. Spirit and that business model is still here, but the ULCC business model at least for the time being, no longer works. Free market and capitolism will solve this problem but having one airline say they will be the decider of eliminating a form of travel willingly, would absolutely flag the DOJ, and it did...

If you look at post-deregulation mergers, the majority of them were merged under bankruptcies. You could argue that buying a bankrupt airline is saving that airline, no matter what capacity of flying they do. That is really how we got here. In fact, one of the only mergers (that matters) that I can think of that wasn't during a bankruptcy was Delta and Northwest. If you can argue that it is good for the traveling public, then chances are it will get approved. The DOJ has approved much more than it has denied.
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AS buying VX was to eliminate a competitor and to stop jetBlue from buying it. VX was dismantled. A boutique LCC gone. I don’t think SW was in BK when they bought AirTran.

I can’t believe there’s pilots who actually think JetBlue-Spirit would’ve been bad for consumers. The 6th place would have gone to 5th place. The impact would have been minimal. What % of market share does JetBlue have and what % does Spirit have? You’re talking chicken feed, not some haystack. To allow so many mergers up to this year, and draw the line at Spirit and JetBlue, is laughable.

We don’t have true free market capitalism. It is heavily regulated.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
AS buying VX was to eliminate a competitor and to stop jetBlue from buying it. VX was dismantled. A boutique LCC gone. I don’t think SW was in BK when they bought AirTran.

I can’t believe there’s pilots who actually think JetBlue-Spirit would’ve been bad for consumers. The 6th place would have gone to 5th place. The impact would have been minimal. What % of market share does JetBlue have and what % does Spirit have? You’re talking chicken feed, not some haystack. To allow so many mergers up to this year, and draw the line at Spirit and JetBlue, is laughable.

We don’t have true free market capitalism. It is heavily regulated.
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VX had less marketshare than Spirit and AS never told the DOJ that there killing the airline off. Remember “more to love”? Also, nobody is arguing that it would be worse for consumers to have JB and Spirit merge. The logic is that JB shot themselves in the foot by announcing their plans to kill a model that at the time, people relied on.

You could also argue that JB wasn’t in a position to buy an airline and foster a merger properly. They aren’t doing that great either. It’s like having an unfit adult try to adopt a kid.

You keep trying to assume that all mergers occur under the same circumstances and situations and therefore when one gets approved or not, it’s the shady government picking and choosing. It’s much more complicated than that.
 
Inverted said:
VX had less marketshare than Spirit and AS never told the DOJ that they’re killing the airline off. Remember “more to love”? Also, nobody is arguing that it would be worse for consumers to have JB and Spirit merge. The logic is that JB shot themselves in the foot by announcing their plans to kill a model that at the time, people relied on.

You could also argue that JB wasn’t in a position to buy an airline and foster a merger properly. They aren’t doing that great either. It’s like having an unfit adult try to adopt a kid.

You keep trying to assume that all mergers occur under the same circumstances and situations and therefore when one gets approved or not, it’s the shady government picking and choosing. It’s much more complicated than that.
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Can you name the last airline merger NOT approved?
 
Inverted said:
Spirit and JetBlue. 99% of requested mergers have been approved.
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That’s my point. A completely unnecessary overreach that didn’t do jack to protect consumers. And in the meantime, service cuts from both carriers that have harmed the consumers happened anyway, along with a rise in fares.


The govt didn’t do jack to help consumers.


And who cares if JetBlue said Spirit will disappear? Of course it will. Just like NWA, CAL, US, AAI, VX. The airline name goes away. In VX case, not only did the airline name go away, but the entire fleet too.

So jetBlue said the quiet part aloud? That’s honesty.

It’s the Biden DOJ and their tough stance they said they would take for any merger. Once the saw the fallout from B6 and NK, they saw their screwup, which is why HAL passed without a DOJ lawsuit.
 
To be fair Cherokee, I think you have a vested interest in both JB and Spirit, when you go home. I've never ridden either, and will likely never. I'm not even sure if I could get from SEA to anywhere on them alone. I'm almost 100% sure they don't time company deadlines on SEA time, which is enough to make the merger invalid to me
 
Inverted said:
Somebody will absorb that flying or they won’t.
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063af3d2-e702-4be2-a332-71acf5933138.jpeg
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
That’s my point. A completely unnecessary overreach that didn’t do jack to protect consumers. And in the meantime, service cuts from both carriers that have harmed the consumers happened anyway, along with a rise in fares.


The govt didn’t do jack to help consumers.


And who cares if JetBlue said Spirit will disappear? Of course it will. Just like NWA, CAL, US, AAI, VX. The airline name goes away. In VX case, not only did the airline name go away, but the entire fleet too.

So jetBlue said the quiet part aloud? That’s honesty.

It’s the Biden DOJ and their tough stance they said they would take for any merger. Once the saw the fallout from B6 and NK, they saw their screwup, which is why HAL passed without a DOJ lawsuit.
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So are you for or are you against mergers? If almost all mergers go though, how is it their tough stance that blocks mergers? Obama was president in 2016 when the AS VX merger happened. In terms of recent mergers and acquisitions, the last couple of democrat presidencies have allowed huge mergers (think Time Warner, Sprint and T-Mobile and more). Again, most airline mergers historically have been under bad economies and with one or both companies struggling.

JB and B6 could have gone though, there were lots of errors along the way and eventually, pretty substantiated rumors that JB was actively tanking the deal as they saw the writing on the wall with B6. AS knows how to merge, they have acquired several companies in their history and they know how to do it. I promise you with the entirety of my heart, that if AS filed plans to kill inner island flying in Hawaii for this merger, there would have been absolutely zero chance the merger went though.

Zero…


All of those airlines you listed, were absorbed and the parent airline grew, including AS. AS didn’t file plans to kill the VX business model, again think more to love. You can’t apply the same lens to every merger just because JB and B6 was denied.
 
Inverted said:
So are you for or are you against mergers? If almost all mergers go though, how is it their tough stance that blocks mergers? Obama was president in 2016 when the AS VX merger happened. In terms of recent mergers and acquisitions, the last couple of democrat presidencies have allowed huge mergers (think Time Warner, Sprint and T-Mobile and more). Again, most airline mergers historically have been under bad economies and with one or both companies struggling.

JB and B6 could have gone though, there were lots of errors along the way and eventually, pretty substantiated rumors that JB was actively tanking the deal as they saw the writing on the wall with B6. AS knows how to merge, they have acquired several companies in their history and they know how to do it. I promise you with the entirety of my heart, that if AS filed plans to kill inner island flying in Hawaii for this merger, there would have been absolutely zero chance the merger went though.

Zero…


All of those airlines you listed, were absorbed and the parent airline grew, including AS. AS didn’t file plans to kill the VX business model, again think more to love. You can’t apply the same lens to every merger just because JB and B6 was denied.
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No one said inter island was going to be destroyed. Nor do I buy for a second all the lovey dovey image they’re presenting. I have my predictions of what this merger will look like, but to avoid accusations of fear mongering, I’ll refrain.


There’s no lens. The idea that all the other mergers prior to jetBlue were legit, but this JetBlue Spirit combo, where market share would go from 2-3% to 5-6% is now somehow irreparably harming consumers is laughable at best. Consumers still have 10 airlines to choose from. Unlike telecoms, ISPs, sectors where the govt allowed mergers where only 3 or so companies exist for consumers to choose from. That’s harm.

And what do you call it, if not harm, when JetBlue and Spirit permanently change their route structure (less nonstops for example), and change their fare model permanently?




And even in AS/HAL, the govt pulled a new move - the DOT actually put merger restrictions that AS must abide by for a period of 6 yrs. The DOT never used to do that. After the DOJ review, the DOT would basically rubber stamp the merger. But not this Biden DOT.



I fully believe it is politics, 100%.
 
///AMG said:
To be fair Cherokee, I think you have a vested interest in both JB and Spirit, when you go home. I've never ridden either, and will likely never. I'm not even sure if I could get from SEA to anywhere on them alone. I'm almost 100% sure they don't time company deadlines on SEA time, which is enough to make the merger invalid to me
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Of course. LAX-DTW/PIT. LA-PIT used to be Spirit exclusive, except now 2x week Breeze offers nonstops too.
 
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