"Airline Internship" at ATP?

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There is absolutely no reason for ATP to be doing this except for the financing in my opinion. I know from being here that we still do not have a lack of students wanting to come here, but financing has gone away. Is it stupid that you can get such a low rate from doing the programs combined? Yes. Is it the only option right now? I don't know this for sure, yet I do believe the big guys exhausted every option before getting to this. Again, I may work for ATP, but I am not privy to what the owners do, so this is just speculation from an informed angle.
 
Again, see if ATP can get you financing through Gulfstream Academy for the ACP program. I have a feeling they might already be doing this.
 
There is absolutely no reason for ATP to be doing this except for the financing in my opinion. I know from being ehre that we still do not have a lack of students wanting to come here, but financing has gone away. Is it stupid that you can get such a low rate from oing the programs combined? Yes. Is it the only option right now? I don't know this for sure, yet I do believe the big guys exhausted every option before getting to this. Again, I may work for ATP, but I am not privy to what the owners do, so this is just speculation from an informed angle.

the bank i was quoted from was PNC Bank. the paperwork says they're based in Pennsylvania.

i think i'm still in a "pre-approval" stage. i haven't signed anything. i did the online application and have received a .pdf of the paper application filled in by ATP.

they approved me without a co-signer.

PNC uses a simple interest model. i don't know if that means anything. but i hadn't heard of simple interest before this. the terms are pretty straight forward and easy to understand. but i'm no expert on loans.

what do you think makes the rates so much better?
 
How about, take the loan for the whole thing that includes Gulfstream. . .

Then, tell ATP that you're going to use the money to get some instructor certificates and that that is it. . .

Then. . .tell ATP to send the unused funds back to Sallie Mae, and tell SLM to readjust the principle amount on your loan.

Haha. . .what a thought.
 
How about, take the loan for the whole thing that includes Gulfstream. . .

Then, tell ATP that you're going to use the money to get some instructor certificates and that that is it. . .

Then. . .tell ATP to send the unused funds back to Sallie Mae, and tell SLM to readjust the principle amount on your loan.

Haha. . .what a thought.
If you don't complete the whole program (drop out, kicked out, etc) they "calculate" the cost of what you did do at astronomical rates, which always leaves you with essentially no money left over. The exact figures are in the paperwork somewhere. I'm not sure what they would do if you failed out of gulfstream though, probably keep it.
 
thanks,

i did get a little flustered because i good news about a long awaited loan approval

and now thanks to you guys

ALL MY DREAMS ARE SHATTERED!!!

(just kidding)

what questions do i need to ask ATP about this loan, or what's up with gulfstream, etc.??

One question . . .
Does Gulfstream charge people to fly on their airplanes?
(OK two questions)
Do they require two pilots to operate?

If they require two pilots, then you are paying them form something they are required to provide, which is a qualified pilot in that seat.
If every airline operated this way, there would be half of the pilots working in the industry you want to join.

Just take a minute and consider that.

OK get back to me on how this is even good for you. (Not to mention our industry)

Good luck.
 
That's the internet dude! I think in general people are less vocal face to face out of courtesy. I'm pretty vocal about my political beliefs online, but I when I chat in person about it I'm much much more reserved, but my feelings are the same.

I must be fearless then!

Seriously, I don't know why the people I talked to would be reserved about this topic. None of them actually know my standpoint on it.
 
One question . . .
Does Gulfstream charge people to fly on their airplanes?
(OK two questions)
Do they require two pilots to operate?

If they require two pilots, then you are paying them form something they are required to provide, which is a qualified pilot in that seat.
If every airline operated this way, there would be half of the pilots working in the industry you want to join.

Just take a minute and consider that.

OK get back to me on how this is even good for you. (Not to mention our industry)

Good luck.


:yeahthat:
Prabably one of the best and simple explanations of why PFT/PFJ is degrading I have read on hear in a while..... And done in a civil tone. See, we dont have to yell and call each other names to get our point across:D
 
Ok,
First, I have flown with 2 ex Gulfstream captains, and they are booth very good, professional aviators. I don't know if they did the PFT thing or not.

Apart from PFJ/PFT issues, I think this is a horrible idea, unfair to passengers and very detrimental to the profession.

First, there are some people that can be hired low time and hack the training and flying the line. There are 300 hr pilots that fly like 3000 hour pilots, and 3000 hr pilots that fly like they have 300. Maturity, judgement, personal discipline, knowledge, work ethic, and abilities vary. The military routinely trains people to a high level of competency in very few hours.

There are many more that can not, or better said should not be in the cockpit of airliner with 250 hours. What burns me up is that these folks can buy there way into a cockpit seat, when they couldn't get through an interview or sim evaluation with another airline. Having a ticket and 20K $$ should not be an automatic way to get into the right seat. Does anyone really believe that these guys are evaluated like the rest of the 121 in their progression in initial training?

I know one individual who is flying for Gulfstream, that I never believed would earn his PPL.
 
One question . . .
Does Gulfstream charge people to fly on their airplanes?
(OK two questions)
Do they require two pilots to operate?

If they require two pilots, then you are paying them form something they are required to provide, which is a qualified pilot in that seat.
If every airline operated this way, there would be half of the pilots working in the industry you want to join.

Just take a minute and consider that.

OK get back to me on how this is even good for you. (Not to mention our industry)

Good luck.

We are all (Edit: Apparently I can't say another word for prostitute)to this industry; We all get paid less than we should and we take it. Let's face it, being a pilot is every little boys dream. Well that and Fireman and Cop. What did you used to do?

I made big money as a Logistics Analyst and Transportation Manager. I sat behind a computer and played Excel jockey. There is much less training required for that. Heck a monkey could do it. I got the big dough though because most folks are like "Screw that I wanna be a pilot".:buck:

Now I have spent $50k to become a professional pilot. I work more than I ever have before. I make 1/4th of what I made before. The difference is that I love what I do, and am just a "Lowly"(Sorry Billy) Flight Instructor right now. Unfortunately, it is a profession that makes alot of people happy.

You did the same thing; left firefighting, went to ATP, and then headed over to Skywest...To make jack diddly squat, but you are happy right? Honestly...I mean really honestly, would you have not even entertained the idea of doing this program back when you were starry-eyed drooling over flying for a living? Do you really think that it will degrade the industry? Maybe it is just a sign of the times. You know, no jobs, no lenders, pilot supply high. In a year or two, Gulfstream will be back in the hole, almost bankrupt, because the airlines are hiring again and this program is not needed? Alot of folks jumped on the PFJ bandwagon a few years back, screaming "For Shame!". Then the airlines started hiring like crazy. Heck companies like Eagle were PAYING for training. And guess what the same people on the other bandwagon said? "For Shame!".

In the mean time, for an individual, it does not seem like an incredibly bad thing to do. I mean, standing alone against a CFI, yes it does...to me anyway. If the individual were to do the whole deal though, which includes CFI ratings, then flight instruct, I would think it would make them even more marketable than someone like me, with no turbine time.
If you can get this whole program for $75K at 3% interest, where a year ago just the PPL+ACP cost this at 12-14% interest, would it not be something to consider?
 
what do you think makes the rates so much better?

I really don't know. How come PNC bank is the only one lending money right now? I mean all the others are gone. Sallie Mae, the largest all time lender....gone. All of a sudden PNC wants to lend full amounts, but only if the ATP program is coupled with Gulfstream? And they will lend for Gulfstream alone but not ATP alone? My guess could only be that they somehow have a vested interest in Gulfstream Airlines success. Just a guess though. For you, well toss out the "PFJ" argument for a second...the financing deal is the best I have seen by a longshot.
 
I really don't know. How come PNC bank is the only one lending money right now? I mean all the others are gone. Sallie Mae, the largest all time lender....gone. All of a sudden PNC wants to lend full amounts, but only if the ATP program is coupled with Gulfstream? And they will lend for Gulfstream alone but not ATP alone? My guess could only be that they somehow have a vested interest in Gulfstream Airlines success. Just a guess though. For you, well toss out the "PFJ" argument for a second...the financing deal is the best I have seen by a longshot.

well, thanks to all the griping i've read ;), the moral PFJ argument is getting harder and harder for me to ignore. i think at first i was blinded by slick marketing and, as you say, "the best financing deal i've seen". now i'm coming on board with you guys in the respect of having self-respect is more important than a quick resolution to goals.

besides, i do want to instruct. i've been looking forward to that for the past 2 to 3 years i've been working on starting my training.

and since i've waited this long, it shouldn't kill me to wait a bit longer if necessary.
 
. i think at first i was blinded by slick marketing and, as you say, "the best financing deal i've seen".

now i'm coming on board with you guys in the respect of having self-respect is more important than a quick resolution to goals.

Not so sure it is slick marketing. I am certainly not here to market ATP. "The best I have seen" is an honest reply. Sorry if it came across that way.

A quick story on a quick resolution to goals:
3 years ago I was going to go to ATP. Like you, I had been thinking about taking the plunge for a while. I came up to GKY and toured the facility. It really seemed like a good deal, but many people here at JC told me,
"NO! Don't go to ATP! You can do it cheaper at a small FBO and achieve the same results and little to no debt!"
Long story short, for the first time in my life, I decided to have a little patience and went the FBO route. Had I gone to ATP 3 years ago, I would have caught the last hiring spree and likely be at an airline right now. Instead, I got worse training and am only a little less in debt than I would have going down the other path. The only bonus is that I have gotten to flight instruct for a while, which I absolutely love.

So if you see some bias in my comments, it is less to do with my place of employment and more to do with my regret for listening to people on an internet forum. But hey, if you listen to me, you are doing the same thing. Why don't you find some real life people to talk to about this stuff and see if there is a difference?
 
If you don't complete the whole program (drop out, kicked out, etc) they "calculate" the cost of what you did do at astronomical rates, which always leaves you with essentially no money left over. The exact figures are in the paperwork somewhere. I'm not sure what they would do if you failed out of gulfstream though, probably keep it.

Wow. . .what a raw deal.

But, now that you mention it, I do recall hearing or writing this information down when I was shopping for training establishments four years ago.

Sadly, this practice is not just taking place at ATP.
 
Had I gone to ATP 3 years ago, I would have caught the last hiring spree and likely be at an airline right now.

If you had caught the last hiring spree in all likelihood be furloughed or on the brink of it. You'd be unfortunately on the street with no CFI job like thousands of other pilots.

And yes, I would still argue the FBO route is better than paying interest on a loan to ATP. I've done both FBO and ATP and would still tell newbies to steer clear of ATP. But in the end everyone needs to make their own minds up.
 
If you don't complete the whole program (drop out, kicked out, etc) they "calculate" the cost of what you did do at astronomical rates, which always leaves you with essentially no money left over. The exact figures are in the paperwork somewhere. I'm not sure what they would do if you failed out of gulfstream though, probably keep it.

That is true. I knew one guy who wanted to quit about a week into his instrument training and he was going to get killed financially. He had done the 85 hour private program and then got his private multi add-on (~9.5 hours) and had about 2 hours of instrument training time in the seminole. Throw in the 2 hour day cross country and 2 hour night cross country that takes place in between PMEL and IRA training and it was going to cost him approx. $27,000 counting the housing, sim time, ground instruction, and books that they sent him. Of course, he was forced to stay in the ACPP and ended up getting his CMEL/CSEL out of it. But I couldn't believe how much they would charge him for so little. I always tell students you have to be 250% sure that you want to do the whole ACPP or else you will get screwed.
 
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