Airline Careers

[CapnJim]

Hi Everyone,

I am very interested in a career as an airline pilot. I have been since I was at least 8 (I am now 23). The airline industry has changed so much and I was just wondering if you thought it was still a realistic goal or not to pursue. I have some other options on the table, but nothing I would enjoy as much as flying. I would love to do the typical route to the airlines, get that 4 year degree, instruct, get on with a regional carrier, and then land a job with a major. I just want to get on some career path, and the airline industry is making me feel discouraged. My basic question I guess is, is the airline pilot profession still a good or realistic one and what is the best way to go about getting there? I would great appreciate any help. Thanks!

If you can get the military to send you to flight school, do that, do that, do that, do that. If not, get all your ratings as inexpensively as you can and then go get the best employment flying planes that your ink-wet commercial cert will allow. Nine times out of ten, this means instruction, so go ahead and get your CFI certs too. Especially your MEI. Hell, get that one first just so you're not tempted to muddle along without it, or god help you, buy all your multi-engine time.

Now, if you're really serious about flying for the airlines, there's some things you should know right out of the box:

1. You're not doing it for the money... That won't be there for many years, if ever.

2. You're not doing it for the schedule... Even 15 days off a month means 15 days in some hotel somewhere, and odds are damn good it ain't gonna be Paris or London.

3. You're not doing it for adventure... Unless your adrenalin threshold is that of, say, a box turtle.

4. You're not doing it for prestige... <CapnJim supresses a snort and a giggle>

5. You're sure as hell not doing it for the future security of you, your wife, kids, etc... This one should be self-explanitory.

In the final analysis, and if you can be honest enough with yourself, you're only doing this for one reason: So you can monkey around with super-neato airplanes. You're basically immature, selfish, and have all the foresight and intuition of a tufted titmouse. You want nothing so much as a big toy to play with, and a swell-looking uniform for Mom to take pictures of, and maybe have something to brag about to pretty girls.

Don't worry...

You're basically just like every pilot who has ever lived.

But you should know something about all your enthusiasm: the businesmen and CEOs who hold the keys to all those wowie-wow jets know, to the tenth of a cent, how excited you are to get ahold of them. They also know how hard you worked to get to the point where you qualify to fly them, and, if you're not military, how much you're in debt getting all your ratings and certificates.

And they know something you don't, which gives them an advantage: They know you will eventually get tired of flying those fancy airliners and start to want more money and more time off. They knew that from the moment you signed the contract. And yes, you will get bored with it all and want more money and more time off. So know that now, before you buy hour one toward your PPL: There are three things you need to know before you even think about flying an airplane for a living.

1. What's the pay?

2. What's the time at home?

3. Where will I be at years 5/10/30/65?

If the answers you come up with are things that you would be unwilling to tolerate in another line of work, guess what? Someone just cashed in on your dreams.

And that's a damn shame.

Know why?

Because the person cashing in your dreams should be YOU.

Good luck.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Best post i've read on this message board. Well said.

 

[Clocks]

How are you only taking in $1200? Your first year pay is better then our first year pay AND your guarantee is better, and I made a bit more then that each month.

I'm not saying an extra $400 would solve every body's problem, but it helps.

My pay checks are $627.81 twice a month with dental and the cheapest health insurance plan. Per diem I'm able to save about $25/day of when I'm on the road.

 

[skidz]

Doug's European adventures is just about enough to keep me pursuing the dream job. May be stupid to waste thousands to see if it is right for me or not, but I'm not quitting until I've experienced it myself.

I agree with this. The road ahead is in pretty bad shape and full of obstacles but it's the goal that counts. I believe the perserverance is the key as Zap and 727 pointed out. From what I understood so far, many of new aspiring pilots either stick with the guns and make it through, or get dissapointed after first couple years, lose faith in themselves and quit. I'm pretty sure it has to pay off in the end for anyone staying long enough. Personaly, I can't tell if I'm gonna be a kind of pilot who will get bored after sitting in the cockpit for couple hours at 35k feet, but I know one thing: I probably won't be happy not ever making it there. I think it's about the one's goals. Sometimes it's hard to see the light at the end of a tunnel, but everyone who ever walked away from his/her goals sure as hell regreted it at some point. If one's goal is to make a lot of money, there are plenty of other professions that work a lot better for that. Aviation seems to fall in here after 15-20 plus years of perserverance. It's a long teerm investment, not a short trade.

 

[NotCoolEnufToFly]

Wow Slushie, you sure seem to have it all figured out. Good for you! Amazing how all these other seeminly nice, successful people were so stupid. Why didn't they just go to you for advice?

 

[Ian_J]

I agree with this. The road ahead is in pretty bad shape and full of obstacles but it's the goal that counts. I believe the perserverance is the key as Zap and 727 pointed out.

That's what you got out of Zap's post? Perseverance is the key? He used that word, but I got a different theme. I've highlighted some of key points and can't find a perseverance theme.

Perseverance.

There was a time when I would go to any lengths to succeed in this profession. I can relate to Jtrain's dillema, but I might add an element. For me, finally reaching the brass ring, flying for a major for 3+ years and then getting furloughed felt like I had wasted a decade of my life. I was fortunate (?) enough to go to a commuter after that... but boy, if you want to absolutely feel like dirt show up at IOE for a commuter sitting next to some 250 hour wonder when you have 8000 hours and 3 type ratings.

It makes you realize that experience means nothing in this industry.

So after 3 commuters, 1 LCC, and 1 major i'm flying corporate. I still have 737 models in my son's room and I cant wait to tell him stories from my DC9 and 737 days. I'm proud of what I accomplished.

That being said, if I were in the original poster's situation, would I start down the road to this profession? No.

One needs only look at CNN to see why. Oil prices approaching $150 a barrel. Airlines collapsing under business plans that never counted on those high energy prices. Thousands -- yes, THOUSANDS -- of pilots being furloughed industrywide...some for the second time in a decade.

If you MUST fly, avoid the airlines. Their business model is broken. There are some fantastic flying jobs out there that have nothing to do with the airlines. Better yet pursue something that allows you to spend each night at home with your family. Buy a 172 - convert it to run on butterfly necter - and enjoy flying as an artist might enjoy painting... without the utter fatigue caused by trying to make a living at it!

Guys like slushie think they'll have better luck than I did. And maybe they will. But what, in their opinion did I do wrong? And how will THEY avoid those same pitfalls? The "it can't happen to me" attitude is prevalent in aviation.

Even Doug will tell you that he's been very fortunate. Not EVERY minor league ball player makes it to the big leagues. And some of those who do, don't stay there very long.

Timing, experience, networking, and a little luck -- all of the stars have to line up just right to have a career like Doug has had (and hopefully will continue to have).

I'm not trying to bag on you skidz - just trying to show how people will read what they want to hear sometimes - especially when it has to do with a goal or dream of theirs. It's really hard to hear negatives for something you really want to do, and is easy to dismiss that for a rosier view. Not saying YOU are doing that, but I've seen plenty on JC do it over the years.

 

[fsiflyer]

I agree with many things that ZAP says. I have been very unlucky in many jobs I have had in aviation. Heck I even showed up to Mesa at the wrong time when they were cancelling interviews. Talk about bad luck and timing. I ended up flying for some bottom feeder 135 operators in the southwest and slowly moving up. Actually I came very close to quitting and going back to accounting (which I hated I must say). But I was determined not to quit. I wanted to make this work. I knew the airlines were not the place to be and I did not really have the times to get on with Netjets. SO.....I NETWORKED!!! Like crazy. Now I fly in Russia as a corporate pilot making what I think very good $$$ and getting ready to upgrade to a bigger airplane. While the market is shrinking in the states we are full swing out here in Eastern Europe and it seems that there are new planes arriving daily.

What I am trying to say is learn the market. Find what works and what does not. Know yourself and what you want to achieve. If you stick it out and you really do want it there are jobs available out there. You just have to hunt them down. Like 727 said, in 10 years you can have my job and maybe even less.

Good luck to everyone out there. One more rule I guess...as soon as this job is no longer fun it's time to start reevaluating why you are doing this. There will always be down days but it should always be fun. At least I think so.

 

[twotwowoo]

I'm going to offer a somewhat different persopective, as someone who started on the path to aviation, spent four years and 50,000, and didn't make it.

I was in much the same situation as you my senior year of high school (2004), all I wanted to do was fly and I was obsessed with the airlines. I wanted it all, the cool uniform, the view from the cockpit, the layovers in Brussels, etc. I started off the smart way, paying as I went, staying out of debt. Then when it was time for me to make my college choice, I was deadset on going to the most fancy pilot factory I could find. I looked at ERAU, UND, Daniel Webster, and WMU. On my parents advice, I also checked out some non-flight majors at state schools like Michigan State and Grand Valley. I decided to go to Western because it was close to family, but I decided to major in flight science. Started flying at college my sophomore year (2006), got my private, and then ran out of money. The FAFSA didn't help because my parents made too much money. I didn't qualify for any private loans. So, discouraged, I changed my major to communication studies. Did that for a year, started my instrument at an FBO, then switched my major to aviation administration ([sarcasm] it's a great backup![/sarcasm] ). I eventually put flight training on hold last winter, just in time for the industry downturn. Now, after seeing where the industry is headed with insane oil prices, talking to airline pilots (whpo say its not worth it) and lurking on jetcareers, I've decided to walk away from aviation, for good. At this point I'm done with flying and I'm graduating with a useless aviation degree next spring. Now I'm faced with either moving across the country to seek out a nonflying aviation job or search for a "regular" job in the Three Rivers area with the aforementioned useless degree and little job experience.

My situation was mostly due to poor financial planning on my part, choosing the big expensive school over saving money and paying as I go, but if I had finished my training I wouldn't be much better off career wise. I still love flying and I hope to be able to buy my own airplane someday and fly it around, but I'm done with the industry. If I had to do it all over again I would go to a different university and major in a marketable NON-AVIATION field. Maybe I would have gotten my sport pilot license on the side to fly for fun.

Don't listen to me, listen to the other guys that have posted and think long and hard about what you want out of this career BEFORE you invest thousands of $$$ on flight training.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Dude... Russia? I would be hard-pressed to take a flying job in New Jersey?!! What's life like in Russia?

 

[BobDDuck]

Probably about the same as Russia, just that the mobsters all have an Italian accent instead of Russian. That and they drink wine instead of vodka.


Stereotype much?

It's threads like this with posts by Zap, CaptJim, Don, Polar and Ian that really make me remember how great a resource this forum is.

 

[CapnJim]

I only regret that I didn't spell 'ahold' 'aholt'.

 

[BobDDuck]

I only regret that I didn't spell 'ahold' 'aholt'.

Hmmm?

 

[PGT]

Besides reading everything Zap writes, there is one huge lesson for this industry.

You will start over.

Some will do so voluntarily, some not. Some more than others. The industry does not respect your accomplishments, your knowledge, your experience or the amount of effort you've put in your career.

Interview calls, who gets jobs, who gets the seniority number. It's all up to a confluence of randomness, timing and luck. Sure meeting the right people at the right time with the right knowledge and experience pull stuff together, but how does that happen? A confluence of the the aforementioned items.

We all "know a guy". We all have expereinces, knowledge and luck that have kept us alive this long.

If you can accept all of this, focusing on the fact that you will start over, then you can contemplate this career.

You're just bummed that you don't fly the -400

 

[skidz]

That's what you got out of Zap's post? Perseverance is the key? He used that word, but I got a different theme. I'm not trying to bag on you skidz - just trying to show how people will read what they want to hear sometimes - especially when it has to do with a goal or dream of theirs. It's really hard to hear negatives for something you really want to do, and is easy to dismiss that for a rosier view. Not saying YOU are doing that, but I've seen plenty on JC do it over the years.

Both Zap and DE727 made references to it, in a slightly different context. My comment goes primarily to DE727 who said that perserverence will get you into his shoes 17-20 years from now or something like that. I'm pretty sure it took perserverence to get Zap where he's at now as well considering all the ups and downs of the industry. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn't even matter whether they would have done it all over again or not. They wouldn't be where they're at had they bailed out after few years of bad luck.

 

[fsiflyer]

Dude... Russia? I would be hard-pressed to take a flying job in New Jersey?!! What's life like in Russia?

It's actually not bad at all. Different but not bad. My wife and I are having a great time. The other contract pilots are all very cool and we have a blast in Moscow and on the road. The pay out here is fantastic but of course you have to deal with living away from the states. It's different for different people. It all depends on what you and your family want in the end but for us it has been wonderful. In fact I am changing airframes to the Challeneger 300 next month and getting a new type rating.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I find that terribly interesting. Where will you go to type? Back to the states for FSI Tucson? Or is there a facility in Europe to train?

Do you guys have kids? How are Americans treated there? What are the living accommodations like? How often do you get back to the states? Sorry for all of the questions.

 

[Aeroman]

I would say at least pursue general aviation no matter how bad the airline industry gets. GA REALLY needs people now, and there's a variety of ways to fly on the side if the career doesn't work out. As for the airlines, remember - even if things turn around, all these carriers will have to call back the furloughees before they even think about hiring again. Even if they do hire again, it would take expansion beyond the pre-cut levels for anyone new to move up beyond reserve quickly. With the end of cheap energy, any kind of massive expansion is unlikely. Because of this, I wouldn't recommend getting into flying for a living unless you really like teaching and taking it easy in general aviation for a LONG time. I'm personally leaving the career in a few months because of this and hope to make more money at a regular job, instruct on the side, and maybe get into the new LSA scene.

 

[fsiflyer]

I find that terribly interesting. Where will you go to type? Back to the states for FSI Tucson? Or is there a facility in Europe to train?

Do you guys have kids? How are Americans treated there? What are the living accommodations like? How often do you get back to the states? Sorry for all of the questions.

No worries with the questions. We go to FSI. For the CL300 it will be Willmington, DE. The living arrangements are good. We have a two room apartment which is European furnished. Plasma TV, queen size bed, etc. As for going back to the states, not that often. On our days off we fly somewhere in Europe and just hang or just explore Moscow. Americans are treated just fine. Moscow is a melting pot like NYC would be so there is a bit of everyone. All of the pilots I know out here like it. My wife and I do not have kids so that of course makes it much easier but other pilots out here do. Feel free to ask any questions.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

That sounds just terrific. Good for you! I can't imagine what it must be like. How did you come across this job? Where did you have to interview? Had you done any international flying in the past?

Our GLX crews use FSI Wilmington. Make sure you say hi if you see one of them!

 

[fsiflyer]

That sounds just terrific. Good for you! I can't imagine what it must be like. How did you come across this job? Where did you have to interview? Had you done any international flying in the past?

Our GLX crews use FSI Wilmington. Make sure you say hi if you see one of them!

Came across the job totally by accident. Networked ALOT and one day this guy called me from Moscow. Had a phone interview and was invited to fly to Moscow for a one on one. They flew my wife and I out for a week and was offered the job. Two weeks later I'm in Moscow flying all over the place. I had very limited international experience (Mexico, Canada, and some of the islands) prior to this but I had a bit of IOE and was turned loose. Been flying alot so I think I am pretty experienced now in European flying. After coming out here I don't know how I will ever go back to the states to fly. The salaries are just so off par that I have to go to UPS or FedEx to reach the same place.