Air Safety Panel Releasing Report on Automation

When you fly for a paycheck, IT'S YOUR JOB. Do it the way boss wants.

If you want to fly your way, go rent or buy your own aviation machine.

It's funny, in the box the crews get the absolute most demanding hand flying tasks and mostly do fine. Especially considering they only perform the maneuver 2x every 6 months after having had hands on the controls 6-10 times since the last SIM event.

The world is changed. Automation, crew and task management are just important, if not more so, than manual flying. And manual flying skills are very important.

@Capt Bill has a wonderful post. Read and reflect on it.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Hand fly the DP and tell the PNF to let ATC know that we're dealing with an automation issue. Covers my ass if the FAA wants to complain that I'm 0.1 miles off the course.
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Meh, aerial survey guys have to stay within 159 feet of course for 4-6 hours at a time(depending on the size of the fuel tanks), without banking more than 5 degrees, yawing more than 25, or pitching more than 5 degrees.. Problem?
Coolface.png
 
UAL747400 said:
Meh, aerial survey guys have to stay within 159 feet of course for 4-6 hours at a time(depending on the size of the fuel tanks), without banking more than 5 degrees, yawing more than 25, or pitching more than 5 degrees.. Problem?
Coolface.png
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That was some of the most fun flying I've ever done.

For the first 20 hours of it, anyway. ;)

Edit: There's a drinking game practiced in Helsinki that goes "I am a real man because (___)." That's all...
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Word.

But there is a LOT of chest-thumping about the Metroliner...
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Because of ONE guy on THE JC????

I and many others will rib our 1900 guys, but it's just ribbing. Most have flown piston frieght either with AMF in the Chieftain or elsewhere, all of which makes the Metro look like a child's play thing. It is... and the Brasilia is the easiest airplane we have here(according to those that have flown everything).

Personally aerial survey is the hardest, and probably the hardest flying I'll ever do. Unless, I decide to strap myself to a wheely office chair and try to fly a 727 single pilot I guess.
 
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Like so many arguments on the internet, they depend on the environment and scenario of the individual poster.[/quote]


No no no. We only speak in absolutes round here!
 
mshunter said:
Like so many arguments on the internet, they depend on the environment and scenario of the individual poster.
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No no no. We only speak in absolutes round here![/quote]
It's all about perspective. Some have more, some have less. Those with more, are better. They just are...
 
UAL747400 said:
Because of ONE guy on THE JC????

I and many others will rib our 1900 guys, but it's just ribbing. Most have flown piston frieght either with AMF in the Chieftain or elsewhere, all of which makes the Metro look like a child's play thing. It is... and the Brasilia is the easiest airplane we have here(according to those that have flown everything).

Personally aerial survey is the hardest, and probably the hardest flying I'll ever do. Unless, I decide to strap myself to a wheely office chair and try to fly a 727 single pilot I guess.
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I mostly can't be bothered to care. It's largely just ribbing here too.
 
UAL747400 said:
Good, then I can buy you a beer! I'm a rich former survey guy and all...
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I was a rich survey guy.

Then I realized that my aspirations were somewhat higher than "Airplane, Single-Engine Land" and that to make any money long run, I had to bite a bullet.

(Actually I'm just as 'rich' now as I was in the survey days, one year in at my airline on the low-paying, junior airplane. Hmm...)
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I was a rich survey guy.

Then I realized that my aspirations were somewhat higher than "Airplane, Single-Engine Land" and that to make any money long run, I had to bite a bullet.

(Actually I'm just as 'rich' now as I was in the survey days, one year in at my airline on the low-paying, junior airplane. Hmm...)
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No one gives a rats behind about that flying is the problem. I beg to differ. I'm not sure I'd ever get anywhere saying that in an interview though... :)
 
UAL747400 said:
No one gives a rats behind about that flying is the problem. I beg to differ. I'm not sure I'd ever get anywhere saying that in an interview though... :)
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It's wonderfully instructive flying, if you think about it: an actual commercial purpose (= mission pressures), and all the other kit and kaboodle. Plus I had a tremendous amount of fun. Would recommend.


AFIS LINK ACK
 
Autothrust Blue said:
It's wonderfully instructive flying, if you think about it: an actual commercial purpose (= mission pressures), and all the other kit and kaboodle. Plus I had a tremendous amount of fun. Would recommend.


AFIS LINK ACK
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Eh, I value the survey flying a lot more. I value that time the most in fact. More than the freight flying. What I'm doing now is just log book entries. Don't really care. Crappy T-prop was something I always wanted to do, but now that I've done it, meh. The flight instructing gave me the hours to get the survey job, then the freight job, and the other freight job, but that's about it. I don't know what your survey job entailed though. What I'm doing now is actually fun and maybe even exotic, but I'm ready for something else...
 
The report was released yesterday, and on quick review of the recommendations, nothing about encouraging hand flying. The closest it gets is making a recommendation to "identify appropriate opportunities for manual operation." In other words, it might be appropriate to do a bit of hand flying when it's clear and a million flying into SBN, but hand flying an RNAV DP probably ain't the "appropriate opportunity for manual operation." Most of their recommendations revolve around training, cockpit equipment standardization, and simplifying the automation. All good recommendations it seems to me.
 
Polar742 said:
It's funny, in the box the crews get the absolute most demanding hand flying tasks and mostly do fine.
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My experiences in "the box" vs. my experiences hand flying in an actual airplane suggest strongly to me that it makes rather a large difference when you've spent the last 3 nights up late in the hotel room poring over the gouge, profiles, etc. Which isn't to say that it's wise to hand fly a RNAV departure just cause you can. Just that when everything is going pear shaped, the skills upon which I've drawn weren't skills that were particularly applicable in the old torture-chamber-on-stilts. Like, knowing how it's "supposed to go" is a mite different from "oh, poopie, something's wrong, now what?"

Incidentally, I think these threads inevitably bring out a bit of chest-bumping between all of the various Tribes of Pilots. We've all seen it plenty. And, yeah, everyone probably thinks they're "better" than everyone else (and I'm quite sure the usual suspects will be along to say "but but but THEY started it"). But it IS still possible to have a thread about automation without having it degenerate in to "No-talent button-pushing systems managers" vs. "Undisciplined, uneducated juvenile cowboys". Double dog dare ya!
 
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I have only used the AP once on a RNAV DP and that is because I felt my hand flying wasn't smooth enough that day. I typically don't use the autopilot on departures because it is a complete idiot. I enjoy when it decides to do a clearing turn prior to turning on course. Especially when in close proximity to other aircraft, you know, when on an RNAV DP.

The AP also has a tendency to "capture" false LOCs and such as well. Had one bank over hard one day because of that. I'm sure it was great for the people in the back.
 
Maurus said:
I have only used the AP once on a RNAV DP and that is because I felt my hand flying wasn't smooth enough that day. I typically don't use the autopilot on departures because it is a complete idiot. I enjoy when it decides to do a clearing turn prior to turning on course. Especially when in close proximity to other aircraft, you know, when on an RNAV DP.
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You must be on the -145.
 
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