Air Safety Panel Releasing Report on Automation

[surreal1221]

Man. What cowards we have all become if we are afraid of being violated for flying our aircraft well within standards.

Fear of being violated can, in and of itself, cause way too significant of a distraction. I recently flew with a Captain who I actually enjoyed flying with; however, he was so worried about being violated because of a potential interview in the future, that his concern and defense against screwing something up was a distraction.

Just fly the damn airplane...is that not what we are? Pilots, after all?

Christ, some sensitive nancies around here all of a sudden.

And okay, sure reference Pan Am or the days of ADF, and VOR to VOR, or /A flying with a couple hundred people in the back...ooooook...maybe not hand flying and putting too much of a load on the PM (PNF) is indeed a good idea - then.

But if someone here thinks operating out of the busiest airport in the world, doing some of the most basic RNAV departures ever, with the other crewmember hand flying it causes too much for the PM (PNF) to handle and monitor...sheesh...how did you learn to tie one shoe, or that tie (oh right, you use the zipper kind eh?), or get dressed, or talk on your cell phone while driving, or navigate a terminal full of mindless zombie passengers blocking your way to the escalater, or drink a coffee while dragging your rollerboard, or god - you get the idea.

 

[mshunter]

how did you learn to tie one shoe, or that tie (oh right, you use the zipper kind eh?).

Hey now! My shoes have no laces, and my tie has a zipper! :-/

 

[GypsyPilot]

According to check airmen and sim instructors, AP on RNAV departures will soon be mandatory. It's part of the new threat and error management based CRM training. I follow the training department's guidance on RNAV departures. It does not take much skill to follow a flight director on and RNAV departure. It's distractions as minor as a pack failing that causing a momentary loss of situational awareness and next thing you know the PF missed the turn at MPASS

We have tons of outstations where you can handfly and get your raw data practice in. I don't get understand the urge to handfly RNAV departures out of ATL


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Weird. We kind of work for the same company, and I have never, ever heard anybody say we need to (or even should) hand fly RNAVs out of LAX, SLC, DEN, ATL, DFW, PDX, SEA, etc.

 

[surreal1221]

This all, originally, stemmed from Atlanta based pilots having lateral deviations on the fancy new RNAV procedures when introduced over 6-8 years ago (I honestly can not remember).

You would have pilots, from all airlines (ASA, AirTran, Delta) who would takeoff on a RNAV departure on the northside and end up drift south - for god knows what reason...all below 2000ft.

So, unfortunately, there was not - for the longest time - a lot of confidence on professional aviators following a SID properly. RWY heading, intercept course, fly the damn departure. Oddly enough, it wasn't the hand flying pilots who were screwing it all up. It was those pilots who had the HDG selector set to something ridiculous like 180 and would make the appropriate call-outs and then blindly follow the flight director into a southerly turn...yeah...cause that makes a lot of sense. The whole SA thing escapes a number of pilots during the first few years (of the departures use at ATL).

Not until the FAA started handing out violations did pilots stop dicking the procedure up. Now, most folks - myself included - verify the HDG selector is set to RWY HDG so that when we call Speed Mode, Nav Mode...the FD doesn't direct me into some turn in a direction I, logically, know I do not need to go.

So anyway - it was the AUTOMATION that was failing crews because they couldn't MANAGE the most basic set-up of the FCP. Go figure...yeah...lets force pilots to use the autopilot now.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Talking about 8 years ago isn't relevant. I'm talking about within the past two years, and it had nothing to do with accidentally setting a HDG bug wrong or misusing the automation. These were LOIs purely for hand flying not to the strict limits that the FAA expected for RNAV DPs during high volume conditions. But hey, if your machismo is more important than your ticket, go for it. Personally, I fly airplanes to make money. All of this hand flying macho nonsense is nothing but a distraction from that.

We have the safest transportation system in the world. Anyone claiming that we need to reduce automation after developing that system largely through the use of automation has a screw loose. Don't fix what isn't broken.

 

[surreal1221]

Yes, it is my machismo that is important.

You keep missing the main point of all of this. It's not dangerous to be a pilot, operating the aircraft with your hands and feet and using your eyeballs to conduct a safe flight.

If, as you say your cases that you are aware of, a pilot can not follow course guidance or the FD, then they absolutely need to not be handflying, much less in the cockpit of any airplane. We are, afterall, ATP rated pilots at this point - right? Can we not follow a needle or flight director without going 2/3 deflection?

Heaven forbid. And yes, I get it, some of us "airline" pilots, don't want to actually fly the airplane. Noted. ((cause that's exactly what the people in the back want, excellent system managers and nothing more)). When's your last day? We still need to get together and drink.

 

[dasleben]

I've only glossed over this thread, but something about RNAV 1 departures...

I'm all about hand flying and keeping proficiency, but I personally always couple them up to the autopilot. Not only is it required where I work, it's just simply a good idea. I can attest that 99 times out of 100, pilots (including myself) will not lead the 767's laggy flight director enough to stay precisely on track. The autopilot manages to do it better than a human pilot every time. Smoothness, well, maybe...depends on the pilot. That all takes a back seat to staying on track and keeping the workload down, anyway.

Also, internationally, they can and will violate you with the quickness if you're significantly off. Much more so than in the US.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It's not dangerous to be a pilot, operating the aircraft with your hands and feet and using your eyeballs to conduct a safe flight.

I don't know why you glorify using "your hands and feet." To me, this is like looking back fondly on the days of the horse and buggy. We've made advances in technology that improve things. Use them! When you're flying a procedure that demands precision, like an RNAV DP, use the thing that provides the most precision: the autopilot.

If, as you say your cases that you are aware of, a pilot can not follow course guidance or the FD, then they absolutely need to not be handflying, much less in the cockpit of any airplane. We are, afterall, ATP rated pilots at this point - right? Can we not follow a needle or flight director without going 2/3 deflection?

There's that machismo I was talking about. Never underestimate your own ability to screw up. It happened to them, it can happen to you and me just as easily.

When's your last day? We still need to get together and drink.

Still haven't decided. I've flown once in the past month and a half, so as long as that leisurely schedule holds up, I'll be clinging to that pay check like grim death. I suspect the schedules will start to get ugly soon, though. We'll see. I'll be surprised if I'm still holding a seniority number come spring time, but you never know. The absolutely latest would be the end of next year, when I would be required to transition to the dark side. That ain't happening, so that's the ultimate deadline.

 

[USMCmech]

But your posts here haven't exactly demonstrated the best attitude.

Neither do yours Todd.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Neither do yours Todd.

I'm not the regional FO looking to move on to a career airline. But which posts are you referencing?

 

[USMCmech]

I'm not the regional FO looking to move on to a career airline. But which posts are you referencing?

All of them.

Your posts have always indicated a lack of willingness to listen to anyone who disagrees with you and possibly learn something from them. I often disagree with you, but I do learn a lot and appreciate your opinion.

That coupled with your low rate of flying (one trip in 6 weeks), makes me wonder if you are not part of the problem that this report is highlighting.




That's not meant to be an insult, but a honest opinion from one pilot to another.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

All of them.

Ok, boss.

That coupled with your low rate of flying (one trip in 6 weeks), makes me wonder if you are not part of the problem that this report is highlighting.

You do realize that you're talking about a report that hasn't even been released, right?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Hey now! My shoes have no laces, and my tie has a zipper! :-/

It's the oooooonly way to fly. Although I did wear an actual tie during pink tie month. (Zipper ones were too short.)

I don't know why you glorify using "your hands and feet." To me, this is like looking back fondly on the days of the horse and buggy. We've made advances in technology that improve things. Use them! When you're flying a procedure that demands precision, like an RNAV DP, use the thing that provides the most precision: the autopilot.

Sure.

Give me a CAT II/III airplane and I'll use that autopilot/flight director to the lowest possible minima. If you make me put the autopilot on (or even strongly recommend it) for an RNAV DP, I'll do it. I won't necessarily enjoy it and I will roundly curse the engineers, but there are other opportunities for hand-flying.

Leaving places where the automation is either strongly recommended or required out of the conversation, though - shouldn't you use these opportunities to, I don't know - fly the airplane? The number of basic aircraft control errors that have resulted in fatal accidents in the last 10 years is both unacceptable and professionally embarrassing. Basic flying skill is, in fact, perishable.

 

[T-Gates]

Leaving places where the automation is either strongly recommended or required out of the conversation, though - shouldn't you use these opportunities to, I don't know - fly the airplane? The number of basic aircraft control errors that have resulted in fatal accidents in the last 10 years is both unacceptable and professionally embarrassing. Basic flying skill is, in fact, perishable.

Absolutely.

I think the point is that there should be a happy middle ground somewhere. I think of the last 40 years of automation in aviation as a parabola. In 1973, we were in the dawn of modern automation as we know it. We started up the slope slowly as pilots were better trained in the automation. I would say that we peaked in safety around the mid-1990's (with regards to pilot handling accidents) because the pilots who were flying the highly automated airplanes of the era, also had a strong background in non-automated airplanes, so they had skills to fall back on. Now, as automated airplanes have become the norm, and the less automated airplanes have disappeared from the skies, we are on the slippery downslope of the parabola because this current generation of pilots (of which I am a part of) has been brought up mostly with the benefits of Autopilot, GPS, FMS, Autothrottles, etc. and lacks the foundation of hand flying skills in large aircraft.

And lets be clear, this is not a "regional pilot" problem or a "young pilot" problem. It is a problem that knows no age, total time in the logbook, or name on the side of the airplane.

So where the industry needs to go is to seek a training and checking philosophy that puts just as much emphasis on automation competency as it does hand flying skills. In traditional non-AQP airline training, it's damn near impossible due to the lack of flexibility in the FAR's and overall training footprint ($$$). Hence the push by the FAA to get more Part 121 carriers into AQP training where carriers can use data mined from ASAP and FOQA to customize training for today's issues.

 

[mastermags]

This thread is hilarious. Is there really no middle ground on this? What happens if your AP is deferred? CX the flight?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

This thread is hilarious. Is there really no middle ground on this? What happens if your AP is deferred? CX the flight?

Not in my plane. And not in the CRJ either, to mg knowledge. And not at my previous employer.


AFIS LINK ACK

 

[SpiceWeasel]

If you refuse a no-AP aircraft, expect a carpet dance.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

If you refuse a no-AP aircraft, expect a carpet dance.

Deservedly. (Edit: see mitigating factors.)

 

[Seggy]

If you refuse a no-AP aircraft, expect a carpet dance.

Deservedly.

No, not deservedly.

It is a 'depends' type situation such as what else is wrong with the aircraft, what is the weather like, how experienced is the flight crew. I have refused aircraft without an autopilot, explained my rational to dispatch (at a maintenance base and they wanted me to do a turn after the aircraft flew in from an outstation with an inoperative autopilot), explained to maintenance control how an MEL works (MEL was 'three legs to be repaired at a maintenance station'), and never heard another word about it.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Not deservedly.

It is a 'depends' type situation. I have refused aircraft without an autopilot, explained my rational to dispatch, explained to maintenance control how an MEL works, and never heard another word about it.

Fair 'nuff. But if it's CAVU, you'd better have a good reason.