Air Safety Panel Releasing Report on Automation

[Trip7]

According to check airmen and sim instructors, AP on RNAV departures will soon be mandatory. It's part of the new threat and error management based CRM training. I follow the training department's guidance on RNAV departures. It does not take much skill to follow a flight director on and RNAV departure. It's distractions as minor as a pack failing that causing a momentary loss of situational awareness and next thing you know the PF missed the turn at MPASS

We have tons of outstations where you can handfly and get your raw data practice in. I don't get understand the urge to handfly RNAV departures out of ATL


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[Boris Badenov]

Hand flying is dangerous in approximately the same degree as looking both ways before you cross the street, even though the sign says "walk".

 

[Nick]

According to check airmen and sim instructors, AP on RNAV departures will soon be mandatory. It's part of the new threat and error management based CRM training.

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This would be company specific then, for better or for worse.

Glad it is that way because where I work there has not been a single lateral deviation on an RNAV departure, ever.

 

[surreal1221]

That's good. Go the exact OPPOSITE direction of what is really needed.

 

[mshunter]

According to check airmen and sim instructors, AP on RNAV departures will soon be mandatory. It's part of the new threat and error management based CRM training. I follow the training department's guidance on RNAV departures. It does not take much skill to follow a flight director on and RNAV departure. It's distractions as minor as a pack failing that causing a momentary loss of situational awareness and next thing you know the PF missed the turn at MPASS

We have tons of outstations where you can handfly and get your raw data practice in. I don't get understand the urge to handfly RNAV departures out of ATL


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If the pack fails, turn the AP on, and handle the situation. After all, the FCP should already be set up to take over with the push of one button, right? Seems simple to me. But the PM's job is to handle that while the PF does the flying. Probably the easiest procedure to fly is an RNAV anything. It's not an urge to hand fly the RNAV procedure. It's the hand flying part, period. As this article so clearly states, it's a skill set that has to be used to maintain it's proficiency, and the industry is having a problem with that right now. Half the time, I'll disconnect the autopilot in descent and call for the PM to turn off the flight director so I can fly it down. After all, didn't they teach us that in the sims, AND require us to demonstrate proficiency at it before we could go out on the line? Is that something we should now only be required to do once/twice a year? Or should it be done on a semi-regular basis to maintain the skill set? Is the FAA not telling us right now to do more hand flying?

As an aside, I had the outer pane on the PM's windshield shatter the other night(I'd post the pic, but I don't think the company would be to happy with me if I did). I was PF, he was PM. It was at altitude. It started with a windshield heat failure message, and then the outer pane let go. We handled the problem fairly easily, because we were acting like a crew. It was my leg, and the captain let me continue to fly, asked for my input, and we diverted, making decisions as a crew, just like it's supposed to work. We didn't declare, because we both felt it wasn't necessary. Same thing should happen when the pack fails on an RNAV departure.

*flashing yellow lights and a yellow EICAS message followed by a possible sudden but minimal cabin pressure change*
PM: "Master Caution, L/PACK FAIL"
PF: "Auto pilot on please, I have the radios, get out the QRH for left pack failure."
Work through the problem, and RTB or continue the flight as appropriate. Keep Dispatch/Maintenance/Pax advised.

When they tell me it's mandatory to use the AP for an RNAV departure, I'll do it. Until then, "Hey cap'n, I'm going to hand fly this thing for a little bit, you okay with that?"

 

[Trip7]

That's good. Go the exact OPPOSITE direction of what is really needed.

How is it the opposite? What will hand flying an RNAV departure give you that other phases of flight where hand flying is encouraged doesn't give you?

If you want FD hand flying practice tell the other guy that you'll be inside shooting the ILS when you're cleared for the straight in visual to 31 at BTR. You can also do your raw data practice if you want.

Same thing on departure. We have countless opportunities for hand flying departures with Flight Director or Raw Data at places like BTR, GRB, AGS, etc etc


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[mshunter]

How is it the opposite? What will hand flying an RNAV departure give you that other phases of flight where hand flying is encouraged doesn't give you?

If you want FD hand flying practice tell the other guy that you'll be inside shooting the ILS when you're cleared for the straight in visual to 31 at BTR. You can also do your raw data practice if you want.

Same thing on departure. We have countless opportunities for hand flying departures with Flight Director or Raw Data at places like BTR, GRB, AGS, etc etc


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You say what for, I say why not? Just a difference of opinion. It doesn't make me dangerous. It's a lot more than just seeing what the instruments are telling you. It's also feeling what the airplane is doing, and how it responds to control inputs, proper call outs, etc.

 

[surreal1221]

Marcus,

Climbs at various airspeeds, with turns, with or without a flight director, help improve flying proficiency.

Restricting crewmembers to rely soley on the automation reduces flying proficiency.

Take for example any of the northbound RNAVs with a speed restriction. Hand flying doesn't hurt anyone, so long as you don't suck at it...but climbing up to 10k, having to level off, reduce speed, make a turn, maintain altitude - and airspeed, and then increase power, pitch, accelerate, and climb to 14k is not dangerous. If you, as a professional aviator, can not handle hand-flying an RNAV departure on a VMC day...I have concerns.

A number of very smart safety folks throughout this country are starting to realize that Airline Training Departments are not helping pilots who have lost flying ability over their careers improve their flying capability. If what you say is true, it flys right smack in the face of recent research regarding commercial pilot proficiency. Hence, an opposite direction than what is scholarly recognized - these same scholars with many many decades of operational experience.

Facts remain, dependency on automation reduces pilot capabilities and hand-flying proficiency.

That is all I am saying. Not going to argue with you about it on the internet.

 

[Trip7]

You say what for, I say why not? Just a difference of opinion. It doesn't make me dangerous.

Agreed. Just a misunderstanding then. Your post came across as not hand flying RNAV departures would result in a loss of proficiency.


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[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Leaving ATL, I typically hand fly up to 18k.

I'm sure that makes for a very comfortable ride for all of the people who paid to sit in the back of that airplane. Maybe your'e in that 10% of pilots who hand fly smoother than the autopilot. But I doubt it. Nothing more annoying than riding in the back of a plane where the bozo up front is jerking the airplane all over the sky because he insists upon hand flying when it isn't necessary.

The lack of skill I see from the left seat of some of these guys I fly with is alarming

Your atrocious attitude toward the guy signing for the airplane who has lots more experience than you is what's alarming.

I have. And their response is usually something along the line of "company asks us to turn the AP on at 600agl." My response is usually along the lines of "It's just a request."

Call me crazy, but when someone pays me good money to fly an airplane, I feel a bit of an obligation to fly it how they want me to fly it. Want to fly it your way? Buy your own RJ.

Feel free to take the controls from me if it makes you that nervous.

I'd probably take the controls from you just because of your bad attitude. Nothing about being "nervous."

 

[charlie1017]

I like hand-flying, a LOT... That being said if the CA prefers that I use the A/P then I'll use it. If A/P in fact becomes mandatory for RNAV departures then I'll use it. It's a TWO person crew, It's not my airplane (it's the company's), and I'm not the one signing the release...

 

[surreal1221]

Agreed. Just a misunderstanding then. Your post came across as not hand flying RNAV departures would result in a loss of proficiency.


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How in the world could you have arrived at that? lol

All he was saying was HE hand-flys them, and occassionally (it appears) some Captains get all squirmy about it. I commend him for hand flying and not falling prey to the automation nation.

 

[Trip7]

Marcus,

Climbs at various airspeeds, with turns, with or without a flight director, help improve flying proficiency.

Restricting crewmembers to rely soley on the automation reduces flying proficiency.

Take for example any of the northbound RNAVs with a speed restriction. Hand flying doesn't hurt anyone, so long as you don't suck at it...but climbing up to 10k, having to level off, reduce speed, make a turn, maintain altitude - and airspeed, and then increase power, pitch, accelerate, and climb to 14k is not dangerous. If you, as a professional aviator, can not handle hand-flying an RNAV departure on a VMC day...I have concerns.

A number of very smart safety folks throughout this country are starting to realize that Airline Training Departments are not helping pilots who have lost flying ability over their careers improve their flying capability. If what you say is true, it flys right smack in the face of recent research regarding commercial pilot proficiency. Hence, an opposite direction than what is scholarly recognized - these same scholars with many many decades of operational experience.

Facts remain, dependency on automation reduces pilot capabilities and hand-flying proficiency.

That is all I am saying. Not going to argue with you about it on the internet.

You can do all that and more hand flying to/from outstations.

It doesn't have to be on an RNAV departure especially out of the World's Busiest Airport.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Hand flying doesn't hurt anyone, so long as you don't suck at it

Yes, but unfortunately, most pilots do suck at it. And to make matters worse, my experience has been that the guys who like to hand fly the most are the ones who suck at it the most. Just flew with a guy last night who hand flew up to about FL250, and he was jerking the airplane all over the sky the entire way up. The hand flown approach wasn't much better.

 

[learhawkerbe400]

You say what for, I say why not? Just a difference of opinion. It doesn't make me dangerous. It's a lot more than just seeing what the instruments are telling you. It's also feeling what the airplane is doing, and how it responds to control inputs, proper call outs, etc.

Hey I'm going to hand fly the rnav departure out of the world's busiest airport with people launching on either side of me from the parallels so I can prove how awesome of a stick I am! Turn the damn autopilot on.If you must hand fly do it at the outstation. When I was at the regionals my reasoning for everything I did was what gives me the least chance of getting violated so I can move on to a major?

 

[Trip7]

I'm sure that makes for a very comfortable ride for all of the people who paid to sit in the back of that airplane. Maybe your'e in that 10% of pilots who hand fly smoother than the autopilot. But I doubt it. Nothing more annoying than riding in the back of a plane where the bozo up front is jerking the airplane all over the sky because he insists upon hand flying when it isn't necessary.



Your atrocious attitude toward the guy signing for the airplane who has lots more experience than you is what's alarming.



Call me crazy, but when someone pays me good money to fly an airplane, I feel a bit of an obligation to fly it how they want me to fly it. Want to fly it your way? Buy your own RJ.



I'd probably take the controls from you just because of your bad attitude. Nothing about being "nervous."

Hopefully attitude wise it's just mshunter talking big on the forum because that type of attitude garners quite a reputation.

I've been here 6 years and 95% of the Captains are great sticks and a pleasure to fly. The other 5% are good sticks but not a pleasure to fly with. I have yet to fly with someone who was "lacking in skills" for the left seat.

 

[surreal1221]

Haven't flown with too many that came back from 'Nam have you?

 

[mshunter]

I'm sure that makes for a very comfortable ride for all of the people who paid to sit in the back of that airplane. Maybe your'e in that 10% of pilots who hand fly smoother than the autopilot. But I doubt it. Nothing more annoying than riding in the back of a plane where the bozo up front is jerking the airplane all over the sky because he insists upon hand flying when it isn't necessary.

I'm sure you've flown in an RJ before, and when I can feel what the airplane is doing in my gut, so can the people in the back. When I'm doing the flying, I can't. I came from a back ground where smooth was a requirement(corp./charter). So I would like to think I'm pretty smooth.

Your atrocious attitude toward the guy signing for the airplane who has lots more experience than you is what's alarming.

Atrocious how? By briefing it before hand and letting the guy know what I am going to be doing? I have seen a few RJ captains(not all of them) have a hard time with flying and SA. How is that atrocious? He has every right to tell me he doesn't want me to do it, and if he does, I'll listen. But does that mean that when they agree to it, it doesn't make them nervous? A simple "I'd prefer you use the AP" is all that is required for me to listen up. And from the conversations I've had with the "guy who signed for the airplane," they really don't have a whole bunch more experience than I do. Most of them, this is the first jet they've ever flown, came straight out of flight instructing, and can't manage the airplane without the FD on. There are a few who have taught me a whole bunch for sure, but there are also a few who I wonder how they got this far.

Call me crazy, but when someone pays me good money to fly an airplane, I feel a bit of an obligation to fly it how they want me to fly it. Want to fly it your way? Buy your own RJ.

Have you seen my pay checks? Regardless, I follow SOP. And using the AP on an RNAV departure isn't SOP(yet). It's a request. I'm still operating within the bounds I have been given.

I'd probably take the controls from you just because of your bad attitude. Nothing about being "nervous."

Feel free if you feel I am about to get you and me violated or worse. But if there is no threat, expect to be on the carpet. You can go ahead and call ProStands to if you'd like as well. It's not a bad attitude. It's flying the airplane within the bounds I have been given. Is that wrong, or dangerous?

And hand flying IMO is very necessary. Read the article, or watch the video at SFO.

 

[surreal1221]

You can do all that and more hand flying to/from outstations. It doesn't have to be on an RNAV departure especially out of the World's Busiest Airport.

You realize that I do not have an official position on the hand flying on an RNAV departure outta the world's busiest airport right? I don't care.

Thankfully the company hasn't instituted this policy you say is coming down.

An emphasis in our profession needs to placed on actually being an aviator again and not a system manipulator. That's all.

We good, or we gonna keep going in a circle?

mshunter, if he is employed at our company, is not in violation of anything.

 

[Trip7]

Haven't flown with too many that cane back from 'Nam have you?

I've flown with several. Why?


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