You think I have something to prove? To the contrary. I like to fly. I sit on the jumpseat a few times a week commuting. I would say that 50%+ of the Delta guys I sit behind hand fly to about 10-12k feet, out of ATL.
Air Safety Panel Releasing Report on Automation
- Thread starter tomokc
- Start date
You think I have something to prove? To the contrary. I like to fly. I sit on the jumpseat a few times a week commuting. I would say that 50%+ of the Delta guys I sit behind hand fly to about 10-12k feet, out of ATL.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Trip7 said:
You're a smart guy, you can make the connection with why I bring it up.
Not gonna drag anyone out in public, but out of the overall group I've enjoyed flying with, two have been placed on my no-fly list due to poor airmenship (yes, reported both... ) and a lack of aeronautical decision-making that would have lead to MULTIPLE violations if I wasn't being a diligent PM.
We can do this all day, and I am not going to be able. My boy gets to enjoy getting two shots today...
If I was, I'm sure I would have been in the Chief Pilots office by now, or at least when we get another one in there.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
mshunter said:
That's Delta bro. Of course. Duh.
Engage that autopilot at 600ft and disconnect when necessary on approach, pull back, hold it...hold it...hold it...YOUR CONTROLS.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
You see, by saying "Thankfully the company hasn't instituted this policy" infers that you do care about flying RNAV departures without the autopilot. If it's in the name of
Fun, I understand your point of view!
My point is, a policy of flying RNAV departures with the AP on will not cause any erosion of pilot skill because there are plenty of opportunities to hand fly at less busier non RNAV airports.
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SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Yeah, so would everyone else who hand flies all the time. Most of them aren't. Like I said, it's possible that you're the exception. But the odds aren't in your favor.
Go back and read your posts earlier in the thread. If you can't see the attitude problem, then that is the problem.
Yes, and they've been flying it for years in a Part 121 environment for thousands of hours. No captain at ASA is low time. Upgrade times aren't short there. You're a newbie in that environment, and he's most definitely not. Show some respect.
There's that attitude problem again. If you don't like the pay check, fight to improve it or quit. But don't use it as an excuse for not operating the airplane the way the airline wants you to operate it. That's no better than the guy in the other thread who used his crappy pay as an excuse for not showing up for work at an outstation.
A request from someone who's paying you to be there. That should count for something. Not to mention that their suggestion is in your own best interest. Several pilots flying out of ATL have gotten LOIs for minor deviations from the RNAV departure while hand flying in the past year. You would be wise to listen to the company's advice, even if you don't respect the fact that they're paying you to be there.
Wow. Your attitude really is awful. No captain would ever get a carpet dance for deciding that you're not going to be flying the airplane. You have no right to fly even a single leg in an entire trip. Every leg belongs to the captain. You get whatever he is kind enough to give you. Read your Duties & Responsibilities in your FOM (or whatever your company calls that manual). You'll notice that it doesn't mention anything about flying every other leg. It mentions assisting the captain.
I'll wait to read the actual report, thanks. I somehow doubt that it recommends hand flying an RNAV departure out of the busiest airport in the world.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I must not of flown with them. I have zero people on my no fly list. Not even ole sit on my hands during taxi to stay 110% standard guy.
SeanD
Well-Known Member
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
Uhm, if a little blinking yellow light and a chime will make you miss the turn, you should probably re-evaluate your priorities. Last time I checked aviating and navigating came first. I do have some cold beer stories about over-reactions to MASTER CAUTION lights down near the ground, but you'll have to buy the beer first.
There are maybe four lights on the flight deck (all of them red, and not all of the red lights on the flight deck count as "WE WILL DIE IF WE DO NOT FIX THIS RIGHT MEOW!") plus smoke or fire in the pressure vessel (oxygen mask...), plus a propeller either running away or failing to feather that will get an immediate reaction from me. Otherwise, we're going to handle whatever it is when we aren't worried about precise control of heading, altitude, and airspeed.
@surreal1221 is right. That little yellow light that says PACK FAIL isn't worth that level of distraction. Indeed, if my 1980s airplane can close the pack valve automatically (therefore containing the problem and preventing further damage to the aircraft) I'm sure the Canadians can do that too. If you're sufficiently distracted by an annoying little EICAS message and a chime that you blow through a turn on a departure procedure then, well, I'm not sure what your priorities are.
I'm pretty sure I'm echoing the AAMP guy from Children of the Magenta, but:
Maintenance of aircraft control comes first, period. (Well, and putting on the oxygen mask, should the need arise.) Everything else can be going to hell, but you will control the lateral and vertical flight path, and energy state, of the aircraft, to ensure clearance from terrain and other aircraft. "We cannot afford it!"
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
A vacant CPO is simultaneously a wonderful and terrible thing.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Autothrust Blue said:
We have two assistants in Atlanta. However, they have not announced who will be the base CP yet, or hired an additional assistant. So, we definitely have a CP, of some sort.
You know Todd, I think you are looking way too literally at what I am getting at here. I have yet to have a captain and I get into a disagreement, and I don't think my pay should have any bearing on the job I was hired to perform(that was a joke, loosen your collar man). I don't have an attitude problem. I invite you to find a captain, previous employer or the likes who think I am some kind of crass • in the cockpit. It's all business. Sure, there have been a few guys who I'd rather not fly with, but they'll never know it. I'm not going to go on some smear campaign here. I can follow a flight director just fine. Just like the auto pilot can.
In short, what does "Donna Summer" sound like backwards? "SIMMA DONNA!" Like I said, it's briefed, and if the captain has a problem with it, it changes. I've said that multiple times. If that's a bad attitude, then so be it. To me, that seems like the perfect attitude, especially in terms of proper CRM. I'm more than obliging to put the AP on at 600ft if the captain has a problem with me hand flying what basically amounts to a down wind departure up to 10kft. If he doesn't speak up, then I'll fly the airplane. It just isn't all that hard. Keep a good scan to be smooth, anticipate, and be ready to call for the AP if need be. We've had calls to the shop before about guys "deviating." The majority was not because of hand flying. The majority of them were due to poor "button-ology." I.E., not selecting the proper stuff on the FCP, or just plain 'ole putting the wrong DP in. That has nothing to do with hand flying, and everything to do with improper automation management. An example would be the speed restriction leaving ATL. It's usually canceled, but if the speed bug doesn't move, the speed doesn't change at the 10k level off so I don't blow the x-wind to down wind turn all wide and loose.
Here, this should lighten the mood a little.
T-Gates
Well-Known Member
What most people fail to realize when they chose to hand fly out of busy airports is how much you increase the workload for the PM (PNF) during a critical phase of flight. The reason most airline training departments encourage use of the highest level of automation during an RNAV DP is because they want the workload to be as low as possible to permit both pilots the opportunity to monitor the performance of the aircraft on the departure. It has very little, if anything, to do with concern over the hand flying abilities of pilots.
I cannot begin to count the amount of times during PC Checks that I've seen people hand fly for extended periods of time during high workload periods and overload their PM (PNF) to the point where they become basically useless. All while the PF is doing nothing more than flying the FD.
This old PanAm training video (a personal favorite of mine) demonstrates this very nicely:
Part of managing your aircraft is determining the most appropriate level of automation for the phase of flight you are in and the conditions you are in.
I cannot begin to count the amount of times during PC Checks that I've seen people hand fly for extended periods of time during high workload periods and overload their PM (PNF) to the point where they become basically useless. All while the PF is doing nothing more than flying the FD.
This old PanAm training video (a personal favorite of mine) demonstrates this very nicely:
Part of managing your aircraft is determining the most appropriate level of automation for the phase of flight you are in and the conditions you are in.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, so I already put my suit on. But, SPIFR>CREWIFR in terms of workload management. I have no problem keeping up with the captains who hand fly out of ATL, the worlds busiest airport, twisting knobs, raising gear and flaps, flowing a checklist, etc. The guy next to me, as so eloquently pointed out earlier, has much more experience than me, and thus far, hasn't had a problem keeping up either. We know what's going to happen, so we anticipate the call and react accordingly. When I have to, the AP is on. When either of us get's overloaded, it gets turned on. When SOP's require it, it's on. When I feel like doing some flying, I do some flying, if SOP's allow, and EVERYONE is comfortable with it.
"Positive Rate"
"Gear up, speed mode, nave mode....flaps 1.......flaps up, after take off checklist"
"Airline1234, switch to departure."
"Airline1234 switching to departure...... After take off checklist complete.....Departure, Airline1234, 3000 climbing 10,000."
"Airline1234, radar contact, delete speed restriction at HYZMN, maintain 14,000"
"Delete speed at HYZMN, climb 14000, Airline1234."
Now all there is to do is sit back and monitor things. If the speed restriction hasn't been removed, all I have to do is reduce power, start a gradual push over 1000ft before level off, and trim. Nothing for the guy next to me to do, except listen and watch. This stuff really isn't that hard on a good day. On a bad day in crappy weather, sure, I'll use the AP. When it gets busy, turn the AP on. And I get that ATL is a very busy airport. I'm domiciled there. But heading into the north east on a decent weather day keeps crews and controllers much busier than flying the posts into ATL on a bad weather day. They have done a great job of designing things in and out of there to keep the flow going very very well.
I just fail to see the harm in hand flying a departure if everything is going smoothly. If it's not, "AP on please" and deal with jagged edges.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
It's probably true that you don't demonstrate an attitude problem when you're actually on the job. Few newbie FOs have the audacity to have an attitude in the cockpit, thankfully. But your posts here haven't exactly demonstrated the best attitude. Again, I think if you go back and read them, you'll see it.
As far as hand flying RNAV DPs, your company is giving you good advice. You're at a regional. Protect your ticket. The only thing more important than that is protecting your passengers and crew. And hand flying an RNAV DP is not the best way to protect your ticket.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
mshunter said:
Yup.
I think what a lot of people fail to realize about me is it's not a bad attitude. A lot of it is sarcasm, and coming from a background of being loud and brash. Im sure you've listened to the way guys act in an auto shop. It's not meant to offend, well, most of it anyways. When it is, it's very very obvious.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
I wonder if the response to this report will lead to unintended consequences. Are we overreacting to a statistically insignificant number of fatal accidents? Given that current training regimens have resulted in unprecedented levels of safety, what do we change? The obvious answer is expand training that reinforces fundamental flying and promotes situational awareness during automation. Okay, that sounds good. What does that look like? Will the results be positive or even measurable? Is there a possibility of negative outcomes?
Are we likely to embrace the findings of the report because it appeals to our ego?
I enjoy hand-flying and I do it a lot. My enjoyment of hand-flying drives my employment choices. While I might be better prepared for some emergencies as a result of the frequency and duration of my hand-flying, I am not afraid to admit that an increased use of automation might actually be marginally safer.
Just a voice of moderation from a guy that is rarely the voice of moderation ... or tact.
Are we likely to embrace the findings of the report because it appeals to our ego?
I enjoy hand-flying and I do it a lot. My enjoyment of hand-flying drives my employment choices. While I might be better prepared for some emergencies as a result of the frequency and duration of my hand-flying, I am not afraid to admit that an increased use of automation might actually be marginally safer.
Just a voice of moderation from a guy that is rarely the voice of moderation ... or tact.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
"Failure to adapt."As it turns out, freight dogs DO rule?
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