It tends to hurt a career because you don't get any kind of staff or career broadening tour. AF likes to say that any O-1 is a potential future Chief of Staff.
Air Force CSO
- Thread starter So ILL
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It tends to hurt a career because you don't get any kind of staff or career broadening tour. AF likes to say that any O-1 is a potential future Chief of Staff.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Oh, no -- there are lots of us who don't like the AF. For me, it is a little like being in love with a woman who hates me.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
You all are very inspiring to the O-1/2 crown
I distinctly remember being at the Nellis O-Club in the mid 90s as a new, doe-eyed and fired-up Lieutenant. I walked up to the bar and ordered a pint, and listened intently for the next hour as several Majors and Lt Colonels opined about how the AF had all ready gone to hell post-Tailhook scandal repercussions and the political correctness of the Clinton administration, plus the idiocy of how USAF assets were being deployed worldwide for peacekeeping and people being worked to death. By their measure, there was going to be so much pain and so little actual mission that a career just wasn't worth it anymore.
Somehow, despite that doom and gloom, I managed to have 18 years so far where the music hasn't stopped.
Despite whatever old idiots like us say, you'll do just fine.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
You aren't hearing too many active, former, or retired officers on here regretting their military careers.You all are very inspiring to the O-1/2 crown
Things change. What's important to you at 22 may not be the same things that are important to you at 32 or 42. You will change and your views of the military will change.
Almost anything is possible for an O-1. For an O-4, you know exactly what's possible. Sometimes it's tough to get a pep talk from folks that are struggling to make it to twenty years.
For many, it's not that they hate their service, it's just some of the the things they loved are gone and it's become a job. Some folks never love their job. It's better to have loved and lost ...
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ryan1234
Desensitized Member
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
I don't see a problem.That may be the problem of being a 29 year old O-1
ryan1234
Desensitized Member
At any rate, it's great to serve at any capacity.
hook_dupin
Well-Known Member
Here's the undiscussed problem: officers make too much money. Every year since 9/11, pay raises have beat ECI.
It's not discussed because it's not a problem or even true.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
If this is true, what does it actually demonstrate?
If your pay increases matched increases in CPI yet outpaced ECI, haven't you just kept up? Your buying power hasn't improved, has it?
That said, military families face unique financial hurdles that most civilians don't face. Home ownership by military officers is probably at an all-time low. If you are a Lt. In San Diego, what are the odds you are a homeowner? If you are a married officer, your spouse faces tremendous career obstacles. I'd like to see unemployment rates for Navy wives. Due to the nature of Navy life, the college-aged children of officers are more likely to attend a college as an out-of-state student.
CPI and ECI doesn't really tell the whole story.
While all that makes sense, I think it's irrelevant. The pay should be commensurate with work performed, scope of that work, and responsibility. Since there is no market or money making ability, that's all you have. And in my humble opinion, pay rates across the board for Officers and Enlisted alike are just about right.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
As per Pilot Fighter, I'll comment as of today-ish:
San Diego LTJG living.......we were at the limit of our means, in a big house, with a yard, garage, hot tub, and carlsbad nightlife a couple mins away. Probably could have owned, but it wouldn't have been something that I would have wanted to own (big house but small yard, 15' from the neighbor's house, etc socal norms). I actually took home exactly as much as a LTJG in San Diego as I made as a new LT in Oceana. Trivia bomb.
As for Navy wife, mine is pretty driven too. Has managed to carve out quite the career of her own in spite of 3 different moves from coast to coast to coast (all 3) in the last 4 years of marriage. Makes a salary now that is at least worth continuing to work for. We have no kids and she is contemplating starting her own business at this point. I wouldn't say this is standard by any means, but I know more than a couple JO's with M.D. or lawyer wives as well. And then some just marry dependopotomousus so it all depends. I'm sure I am telling you nothing new
My promise to her is actually that I will let her be the sugar mama after I get off active duty and will move wherever she wants to support it. I have no problem with that. Maybe I can find a fun flying job to supplement my day job of tugging myself around the house while she is at work.....
San Diego LTJG living.......we were at the limit of our means, in a big house, with a yard, garage, hot tub, and carlsbad nightlife a couple mins away. Probably could have owned, but it wouldn't have been something that I would have wanted to own (big house but small yard, 15' from the neighbor's house, etc socal norms). I actually took home exactly as much as a LTJG in San Diego as I made as a new LT in Oceana. Trivia bomb.
As for Navy wife, mine is pretty driven too. Has managed to carve out quite the career of her own in spite of 3 different moves from coast to coast to coast (all 3) in the last 4 years of marriage. Makes a salary now that is at least worth continuing to work for. We have no kids and she is contemplating starting her own business at this point. I wouldn't say this is standard by any means, but I know more than a couple JO's with M.D. or lawyer wives as well. And then some just marry dependopotomousus so it all depends. I'm sure I am telling you nothing new
My promise to her is actually that I will let her be the sugar mama after I get off active duty and will move wherever she wants to support it. I have no problem with that. Maybe I can find a fun flying job to supplement my day job of tugging myself around the house while she is at work.....
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Even when you can afford to buy, you have to select a house that would be easy to sell. It's tough to build equity and not take an occasional beating if you are going to buy at every move. Would you have been able to swing that house on a single income?
I wasn't saying that officers were poor. I was suggesting that they face some challenges that aren't reflected in the CPI or ECI.
@///AMG, great that you have a wife that is pulling her weight.
hook_dupin
Well-Known Member
It is true and it is a problem at the macro level. Once you add in BAS and BAH, and correct for tax advantages, the average O-3 with 6 years of service (and no bonuses/special pays) makes $92K (OSD calls this RMC - Regular Military Compensation). Even without any spousal income or monetary advantages from deployments, that's in the 75th percentile for US median income. At least in the Air Force, we have a retention problem... we have way too much of it (fighter pilots excepted). Very shortly, I'll be an O-4. Looking at my numbers...that puts me in the 82nd percentile for median income. No wonder not enough O-3 to O-5s are leaving the Air Force: there are clear financial incentives to stay. There may be a pay gap for the enlisted folks compared to equivalent civilian careers. I believe strongly that the opposite is true for officers. Where else can a history or English major make $100K after 8-10 years and join the check-of-the-month club after 20?
Sure...there's unique hurdles. I believe they are much less than they were in the mid-90s or earlier. CPI isn't a real good comparison to military pay increases because the biggest factor in CPI changes over the last decade or so have been the dramatic increases in medical care cost... which we haven't had to pay for out of pocket (you could make an quality-change argument here, but costs to the member have been the same...)
As for spouses, I'm seeing an increasing number of wives who are able to become location-independent through telework or other internet technologies. It's far from a significant population, but I see it moving upward. The days when a the career expectations of a spouse were mom, teacher, nurse, or clerical work are done.
Quite a few states offer in-state tuition for dependents even if the sponsor moves. On top of that, the ability to hand over Post 9/11 GI bill benefits to dependents is huge.
Garnish all of this with the absolutely phenomenal retirement system we have and the eligibility for VA home loans, and you have a system that is simply blows the doors off of civilian compensation for most careers.
I'm not saying everything is a bright and shiny bowl of happiness in the military... just that I think we haven't faced nearly the same compensation challenges as those on the outside. If I compare myself to the average guy on the outside who got his CPL the same year I got commissioned...I'm doing much better (he's probably a regional FO. Maybe regional CA if he got lucky). The same is true if I compare myself to someone who started civil service as a GS-9 and grew to a GS-13 (they haven't gotten a raise in the last three years..no ECI/CPI arguments there).
Wait - you ARE a commissioned Officer? Is the work you do not worth what you're paid?
Then again, this could be a service specific thing.
Relating to your last sentence, this comm major walked right into a $100k+ civilian job after active duty. Got hired because they knew the value commissioned officers have and got paid that much because that's what I was worth.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
A well-reasoned response.
My initial response was the result of what I thought was a misuse of ECI. I wasn't suggesting that officers are underpaid and I certainly view my retirement as generous remuneration.
Looking back, the only real gripe I ever had about my finances was my inability to gain equity in a home in the first years of my service.
Secondarily, disqualification for in-state tuition can be a burden. The timing often is a killer. You make too much to qualify your kid for loans. You get nailed for out-of-state tuition. And, you are up against a retirement in which you may take a short-term (or long-term) cut in pay.
As far as college tuition, in-state tuition is usually granted for the state that you reside or stationed. However, let's say that your child attends junior high and most of high school in Virginia. Then you are stationed in Washington. Your child might have entertained a reasonable desire to attend a Virginia school, but isn't eligible without gaming the system.
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hook_dupin
Well-Known Member
I think I'm overpaid. Actually, over-benefited is probably a better term. The cash into the bank is about right. Maybe it's because I've been slowly slipping into the staff/acquisition world and potentially not flying the line again. When I was punching 14 hour days as a young Captain, the AF got every penny and more. I'm not sure the calculus is the same anymore.
About a year ago, I was offered a gig in the flight test department of a major defense contractor for what would have been above $100K. I did the math on the loss of income from losing a pension, what I'd have to invest to make up the difference, and my expected extra spending on health care. Sprinkle in the risk of a contract not coming through, and I just couldn't make it make sense. It's one of the things I am growing frustrated with: after about 6 years, officer pay is a low-risk / medium reward option. It takes something really at the fringes of the risk/reward curve to make people move.
We do a great job of turning college grads into on-the-spot decision makers. We then slowly crush them. My take is that the officer compensation system drives bloat at the O-4 to O-5 levels and essentially incentivizes risk-adverse thinking for those with 10-18 years in. I don't think that's good for America... we need leaders who are willing to take risks vice conformists who are trying to make it to sanctuary without too much family trauma.
There was a good article in The Atlantic a few years ago (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/why-our-best-officers-are-leaving/308346/) that argued our promotion and retirement system reduces innovation from officers. I don't agree with everything, but I definitely think our system drives a bit of unwillingness to be different.