Air Force CSO

[So ILL]

So I got a job offer from the OTS boards to be a CSO. I have a 4 year flying university degree and obviously my #1 didn't happen. I had a PCSM and Pilot score in the nineties but I guess the board was tough this summer. I am applying to a Reserve squadron but I turn 29 this Dec. and not sure if I would quite make the cutoff before turning 30. So my question to you military pilots; have any of you started out as a Nav or CSO and got accepted to UPT after 30 with an age waiver? How likely is it for an FAA Comm. Ins. CSO to get approved? From what I gather it may be a long shot but being an officer would make it worth the fight.

 

[ryan1234]

Let me know if you have any specific questions about it. In your position, you definitely have to make the mental leap of going from being a pilot to not being a pilot. Per AFI you generally need 2 years of being winged as a WSO/CSO/Nav/EWO to go to UPT, there have definitely been exceptions, but that is the rule as of now. Could things change? Yes. You really have to want to be an officer and serve rather than make it your path to UPT. The length and wait can be long. It took me 6 months from selection to OTS, and then 4 more months after graduation to start UCT (or affectionately known as Combined Undergraduate Navigator Training). It took a year to complete, now I'm just about to start Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals (IFF), followed by SERE and then sometime next year the F-15E B-course which lasts about 10 months. Some of my buddies are already starting their MWS training. I turned 28 in OTS, I'll be 31 shortly after I graduate the B course. If that gives you any gauge of the timeline. I'm not 100%, but I believe the age exception to policy extends to 32 maybe?

The biggest thing will be to understand you are leaving the career of being a pilot to be whatever it is you will be as a CSO. Also, looking at the applications and board for rated (WSO/CSO/Nav/EWOs) to UPT, they're picking a SRO (senior ranking officer / class leader), not necessarily the best pilot candidate. So whatever you do, I would try to be the best officer / leader you can be if you were to go the UCT route. Hacker can point you in the right direction for all of that stuff.

The Reserve / Guard process can last a long time. I know of a few stories of guys who were hired with the promise of the unit fighting for an age ETP, which they, unfortunately, did not. It was easier for them to simply hire someone else in the mean time. The Age Exception to Policy requires a lot of work in the Guard / Reserve, just as an FYI.

 

[So ILL]

Thanks, so how do you like being a CSO? Do you ever look back at being a pilot, or is the flying fun enough to keep you in the game?

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I think that every prospective pilot or CSO (or NFO) should be mentally prepared to serve their commitment knowing that circumstances might remove them from the cockpit.

As far as the Navy goes, NFO to NA is long-shot. A small number might get the opportunity to transition while in training but these are the rarest of cases, often resulting from early SNA attrites. The most common cases follow stellar JO tours, #1 EP, grad school attendance, luck, and timing.

On a side note, I'm pretty sure that the FAA will accept F-15E WSO time as SIC time.

 

[So ILL]

Thanks. Yeah I'm trying to treat this whole thing as if im not going to be flying at all. I just didn't do my homework on CSO since I thought well if I make the officer cutoff they'll have to make me pilot with my scores and rating. But I think the vision part of my MEPS report (20/200) had something to do with it. In any case I'm okay with just being an officer and then anything else they put me in. As of right now my plan would be to go in and get DG in school or some other high mark then get lasik and reapply for UPT with an age waiver if they're still around.

 

[MikeD]

Thanks. Yeah I'm trying to treat this whole thing as if im not going to be flying at all. .

You're flying as a CSO, just not on the controls. But you are an integral part of the crew, whether on an RC-135, AC-130, B-52, or F-15E.

Want to really be a weirdo? Go the EWO route.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

You're flying as a CSO, just not on the controls. But you are an integral part of the crew, whether on an RC-135, AC-130, B-52, or F-15E.

Want to really be a weirdo? Go the EWO route.

Or EA-6B.

 

[hook_dupin]

Want to really be a weirdo? Go the EWO route.

Theoretically, all the CSO grads are EWOs now...

 

[ryan1234]

Theoretically, all the CSO grads are EWOs now...

Don't put that hate on me

 

[MikeD]

Theoretically, all the CSO grads are EWOs now...

Every pure EWO I've ever met, like a BUFF EWO or EF-111 guy....all of them seemed kind of socially odd; as if they spent too many days locked up in the booths at Corry Station.

 

[Hacker15e]

On a side note, I'm pretty sure that the FAA will accept F-15E WSO time as SIC time.

No FSDO that I know will...and I've spent a lot of time around F-15E WSOs who wanted their flight time to count for something with the FAA.

I only know ONE guy, and this was about 15 years ago, who personally knew a FSDO inspector and that guy allowed this WSO to use his WSO time to get an ATP.

Other than that, WSO time is worth nothing to the FAA or the airlines.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I guess things have changed in the last 15-20 years. Based on their history of accepting AF F-4 WSO time and Navy S-3 NFO COTAC time, I assumed that F-15E would be treated the same way.

My COTAC time was accepted as SIC time without question towards my ATP. Maybe the copilot-tactical coordinator designation helped.

I guess I stand corrected.

Edit: Those NFOs and WSOs I know that applied SIC towards their ATPs DID NOT attempt to apply for a commercial ticket based on military competency like a pilot would, as they can't show any military pilot training. Those I know that were successful obtained their commercial on their own and then applied hours.

 

[rocketman5150]

So I got a job offer from the OTS boards to be a CSO. I have a 4 year flying university degree and obviously my #1 didn't happen. I had a PCSM and Pilot score in the nineties but I guess the board was tough this summer. I am applying to a Reserve squadron but I turn 29 this Dec. and not sure if I would quite make the cutoff before turning 30. So my question to you military pilots; have any of you started out as a Nav or CSO and got accepted to UPT after 30 with an age waiver? How likely is it for an FAA Comm. Ins. CSO to get approved? From what I gather it may be a long shot but being an officer would make it worth the fight.

It's seems to me that you want to be a pilot, and that you view being a CSO (whatever that is) as either a possible pathway to get to where you want to go, or as a consolation prize if you don't get there. I have observed that people who go into any job or endeavour with their eyes on the next job tend not to do well in the one they have. Therefore, I would suggest you try the reserve route. It sounds like your chances are slim either way, but at least the reserves take you in the direction you want to go. If it doesn't work out, you can say that you gave it a shot. That seems better to me than spending a decade wishing you were somewhere else.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

It looks like it was the Air Force, not the FAA that closed the door to F-15E WSO's logging SIC time, as it has a minimum crew of one. I should have checked before posting.

In the case of the F-4, the FAA ended the party for WSO's in 1979 or 1980. I think the FAA established a standard of minimum crew, dual controls, designation, and training. Both the Navy and Air Force Phantoms were approved for pilot-only flight. That was probably enough to end that.

 

[So ILL]

Thanks guys, yeah I have my commercial and instrument and was hoping CSO time would count towards some kind of time building. I would think the Air Force/FAA would allow some crossover since the revamped CSO training down in Pcola has a lot more hands on flying. Well If I do take it I can flight instruct on the side and hopefully make enough money to time build on my own. I'm not itching to start a commercial flying career right now just some time down the road.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Thanks guys, yeah I have my commercial and instrument and was hoping CSO time would count towards some kind of time building. I would think the Air Force/FAA would allow some crossover since the revamped CSO training down in Pcola has a lot more hands on flying. Well If I do take it I can flight instruct on the side and hopefully make enough money to time build on my own. I'm not itching to start a commercial flying career right now just some time down the road.

I think you'll be a bit busy for a few years.

 

[Hacker15e]

Well If I do take it I can flight instruct on the side and hopefully make enough money to time build on my own.

Depending on what airframe you end up in, you need to realize that USAF operational flying is FAR from being a 9-5 job, so I wouldn't count on having enough time outside of work to do "instructing on the side", especially if you get married and have a family down the road. Keep in mind that the AF is going to saddle you with lots of work outside the cockpit in the form of a desk job, and additional professional advancement requirements like getting a Masters degree to progress past Captain.

Also realize that the USAF doesn't allow officers to have employment outside of the AF without specific permission. A risk-averse commander could easily decide that you flying GA on the side was too rich for his blood and tell you 'no'.

 

[hook_dupin]

Every pure EWO I've ever met, like a BUFF EWO or EF-111 guy....all of them seemed kind of socially odd; as if they spent too many days locked up in the booths at Corry Station.

Ironically, I know a few F-15E WSOs who tried to hide the fact that they went to EWO school. It went as far as trying to get AFSCs changed to avoid the EWO-only deployments...

Thanks guys, yeah I have my commercial and instrument and was hoping CSO time would count towards some kind of time building. .

I log the time where I was "sole manipulator of the controls" in my FAA logbook. That said, I don't think I fly as much as other WSOs do.

Well If I do take it I can flight instruct on the side

Let me translate what @Hacker15e and @Pilot Fighter were trying to say: If I were your flight commander and I found out you were flight instructing on the side, I would kick you square in the balls. Save it for some time when you're jabbing your eyes out on a staff job... that's what I did.

 

[So ILL]

I hope the big bases still have an aero club that's where I would try and flight instruct. Of course if its overseas that might be a different story. And does the Air Force make you fill out a 26B everytime you get in a 172?

 

[Soku39]

No you just put it on your high risk activities form that they'll have you fill out, other "high risk" activities to include skiing, scuba diving etc etc. The sq/cc can either approve you to do them or not. Oh ya did anyone mention that being in the Air Force is a lot like being in kindergarten?