Air Canada A320 Crash at YHZ

[Boris Badenov]

"Please, Sir, just a one mint? It's only wafer thin."

Richman

Better get a bucket.

 

[deadstick]

The idea being, there is a PAPI, or other visual glidepath available. The effect is particularly insidious when that reference is either out of service or non-existant.....due to it just not being there, or being obscured in some way.

Of course, as previously mentioned, this is just all basic discussion; and all, some, or none of this may apply to the accident in question.

That I get. I thought you were saying they could get into the black hole trap even with the PAPI.

(Dear God I hope Don Lemon doesn't do a search and finds we're discussing black holes and airplane accidents.)

 

[MikeD]

That I get. I thought you were saying they could get into the black hole trap even with the PAPI.

(Dear God I hope Don Lemon doesn't do a search and finds we're discussing black holes and airplane accidents.)

The videos were examples of what the phenomenon would look like in general, especially the helicopter one. But the post just prior to that is where I mention that "...Visual approaches and non-precision final approaches, especially on runways where no visual glidepath aid is present or operating, are particularly susceptible...."

That said, I have seen actual instances of flying with guys where "trust the VASI" starts to apply in the same way as "trust your instruments", when spatial-D'd in the WX. Seen a few times where they're on the visual glidepath, but comment to the effect of "....wonder if that VASI is calibrated right, as we sure do seem high......" Luckily, neither of them succumbed to another vestibular illusion, the so-called "giant hand effect" (which I myself have encountered on a particular night, and is a very real and difficult one to overcome), and they just trusted what they saw and continued. But the doubt was there due to the illusion.

 

[Trip7]

I'm curious about a number of things with this: Why not do the ILS 23 if you're going to shoot an approach with a more or less 90 degree crosswind? A LOC approach is a bit of a pain in fifi with having to go to FPA mode (note the threats associated- re: UPS in BHM), particularly in those conditions.

I suppose the RVRs were below mins for the RNAV directly into the wind (RNAVS are stupid simple on fifi).

That 25 year old bird took one heck of a beating!

Interesting. The 737NG can basically turn any approach in the world into a precision approach and provides a 3 degree path to the rwy threshold (provided you have the rwy environment at mins). Can you couple Airbus FPA to the Autopilot or you have to V/S it?

 

[Trip7]

Different circumstances but a Airbus crash related to improper non precision approach procedures:

 

[Baronman]

Interesting. The 737NG can basically turn any approach in the world into a precision approach and provides a 3 degree path to the rwy threshold (provided you have the rwy environment at mins). Can you couple Airbus FPA to the Autopilot or you have to V/S it?

Just looking at this approach (LOC or NDB 5 YHZ). LOC approaches are among the more "clunky" approaches in that you don't just couple everything up like on an RNAV or VOR approach. LOC is one time you don't just hit the approach button and let'er rip.

You'd approach the final approach fix, set the instrument-approach provided angle into the the window (3.1 in this case) and just prior to passing the FAF you'd tell it to start down on the angle. (CDA style).

This approach is a little strange (maybe someone can post it). The FAF is passed while in a descent already. It's almost like the FAF is a step down.

 

[Trip7]

Just looking at this approach (LOC or NDB 5 YHZ). LOC approaches are among the more "clunky" approaches in that you don't just couple everything up like on an RNAV or VOR approach. LOC is one time you don't just hit the approach button and let'er rip.

You'd approach the final approach fix, set the instrument-approach provided angle into the the window (3.1 in this case) and just prior to passing the FAF you'd tell it to start down on the angle. (CDA style).

This approach is a little strange (maybe someone can post it). The FAF is passed while in a descent already. It's almost like the FAF is a step down.

I see. So the big threat it seems is inadvertently starting down too early. That's what Air Afriqiyah did and wouldn't be surprised if it was also the case here with Air Canada based on how far short of the rwy they impacted

 

[Baronman]

I see. So the big threat it seems is inadvertently starting down too early. That's what Air Afriqiyah did and wouldn't be surprised if it was also the case here with Air Canada based on how far short of the rwy they impacted

Sure it's a threat in that you reach your DA sooner (DA right? We're doing a continuous descent here). Looks like the FO in the Air Afriqiyah did the right thing, he started a go-around which the CA overrode. Starting down early before the FAP potentially puts you in terrain prior to the FAP. After that I'd think you're protected to the MDA. So as long as you don't hit anything prior to the FAP and initiate a go-around upon reaching your DA you've caught the error.

I fully agree starting down early would be a link in the chain of events leading to an accident.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Interesting. The 737NG can basically turn any approach in the world into a precision approach and provides a 3 degree path to the rwy

You talking about the 3 degree line in the HUD? Or something else that I'm unaware of?

 

[derg]

You talking about the 3 degree line in the HUD? Or something else that I'm unaware of?

Put the tail of the "birdy" on the horizon and that's a 3 degree glidepath to anything from a runway to the Texas Motor Speedway.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Is that with single cue or dual cue presentations? Our operation is still stuck in the Jurassic era with a single cue,so the miniature airplane is v shaped.

 

[Trip7]

You talking about the 3 degree line in the HUD? Or something else that I'm unaware of?

Do your NGs have IAN approach mode?

 

[X-Forces]

They should be banned. The (French) military should only have access to such dangerous aircraft.

French military? What's that??

 

[derg]

French military? What's that??

They're all at the Louisiana Institute of High Technology.

 

[tcco94]

Everyone quick to jump on the Airbus hate wagon from accidents caused by pilots...

Did you do that for the 777 when they crashed landed short, went missing, and blown up by missiles?

 

[🦈💜]

Everyone quick to jump on the Airbus hate wagon from accidents caused by pilots...

Did you do that for the 777 when they crashed landed short, went missing, and blown up by missiles?

O.O;

Holy crap. I must have missed that accident. That's a pretty spectacular way to go.

-Fox

 

[tcco94]

O.O;

Holy crap. I must have missed that accident. That's a pretty spectacular way to go.

-Fox

It survived. Never doubt the 777.

 

[pianokeys]

Everyone quick to jump on the Airbus hate wagon from accidents caused by pilots...

Did you do that for the 777 when they crashed landed short, went missing, and blown up by missiles?

Most Airbus bashing here, from what I can read, and read into, is just

(I really wanted an excuse to use the emoticon)

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Is that with single cue or dual cue presentations? Our operation is still stuck in the Jurassic era with a single cue,so the miniature airplane is v shaped.

I will never understand why SWA has consistently chosen $$ (training cost savings) over the increased safety inherent in the newer aircraft design features and symbology. It really is Boeing's fault for going along with it.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Do your NGs have IAN approach mode?

Not that I am aware of. What does IAN stand for?