Air Canada A320 Crash at YHZ

[pianokeys]

The Canadian TSB just finished up a news conference in Halifax, I watched it. They say the aircraft struck the power lines, and then landed 1100 feet short of the threshold where the main gear detached, it then struck the ILS localizer array and runway lights, and skidded 1000 feet beyond the threshold with the number one engine detaching. The TSB says there is extensive damage to the aircraft all around. CVR/FDR have been extracted and are on the way to Ottawa for analysis. More investigators and Airbus reps are coming tomorrow.

Air Canada stated in a press conference earlier today that the weather was safe to land. A reporter asked how the TSB feels about that comment and the TSB stated that they haven't ruled out weather yet. They are still collecting data and haven't begun to compile or piece together what happened.

One reporter asked if the passengers and crew were lucky based off what they've seen so far, and the response was "Like I said they touched down 1100 feet before the runway, I'd say they're very lucky."

I bet the pressure is on the TSB now with such fast results from the Germanwings incident.

 

[FloridaLarry]

Knot4U said:

How long were they holding?

FlightAware shows three circles on radar. Nobody has talked about low fuel. I doubt if Air Canada has a 'no more than three loops and we land' policy.

The report will be interesting reading.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

The Canadian TSB just finished up a news conference in Halifax, I watched it. They say the aircraft struck the power lines, and then landed 1100 feet short of the threshold where the main gear detached, it then struck the ILS localizer array and runway lights, and skidded 1000 feet beyond the threshold with the number one engine detaching. The TSB says there is extensive damage to the aircraft all around. CVR/FDR have been extracted and are on the way to Ottawa for analysis. More investigators and Airbus reps are coming tomorrow.

Air Canada stated in a press conference earlier today that the weather was safe to land. A reporter asked how the TSB feels about that comment and the TSB stated that they haven't ruled out weather yet. They are still collecting data and haven't begun to compile or piece together what happened.

One reporter asked if the passengers and crew were lucky based off what they've seen so far, and the response was "Like I said they touched down 1100 feet before the runway, I'd say they're very lucky."

I bet the pressure is on the TSB now with such fast results from the Germanwings incident.

Screw the pressure, I want them to get it right.

And yes, I would say that they're very lucky.

 

[MikeD]

I bet the pressure is on the TSB now with such fast results from the Germanwings incident.

The TSB won't mess around or rush due to pressure. They learned their lesson after CASB was disbanded.

 

[chris]

Our east-coast weather is just plain nasty most of the time, especially in winter. Then again, it's pretty bad all year round

 

[deadstick]

I'd kill for those FICONS in the winter. Mmmm beta.

Chicks dig it.

ANOTHER Airbus crash! What is WRONG with these airplanes????

They should be banned. The (French) military should only have access to such dangerous aircraft.

 

[MOONWOLF]

Oh come on now, it's not THAT bad........part of the tail is still intact!

View attachment 30835

What filter is this? Sooo pretty!

 

[Seggy]

I can very easily see this happening.

I know the investigation has to run it's course but when the weather is crap at night, you break out on an approach, there is a natural tendency to wrongly identify the 'runway environment' as the actual runway ESPECIALLY when the lights are over water or when there are little other ground features showing. I had a FO think that the ILS lights were the runway lights in LGA coming in on the ILS to 22 during a crummy weather night.

Here is an probably cause statement and accident report about an airplane that descended onto ILS pylon lights. They landed about 2000 feet short.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...-30be-417c-b745-d2f96d8d7518&pgno=5&pgsize=50

While I am not sure of the approach lighting system for Runway 5 in YHZ, I could see that if the weather is crap, most of the runway is covered in snow, etc., you could mistake the lights on the localizer and other areas of the 'runway environment' as the runway edge lights.

 

[CFIscare]

I can very easily see this happening.

I know the investigation has to run it's course but when the weather is crap at night, you break out on an approach, there is a natural tendency to wrongly identify the 'runway environment' as the actual runway ESPECIALLY when the lights are over water or when there are little other ground features showing. I had a FO think that the ILS lights were the runway lights in LGA coming in on the ILS to 22 during a crummy weather night.

Here is an probably cause statement and accident report about an airplane that descended onto ILS pylon lights. They landed about 2000 feet short.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...-30be-417c-b745-d2f96d8d7518&pgno=5&pgsize=50

While I am not sure of the approach lighting system for Runway 5 in YHZ, I could see that if the weather is crap, most of the runway is covered in snow, etc., you could mistake the lights on the localizer and other areas of the 'runway environment' as the runway edge lights.

That link is bad, do you have another?

That's an interesting theory and one I must admit I have never heard of. Good learning opportunity.

 

[MikeD]

I can very easily see this happening.

I know the investigation has to run it's course but when the weather is crap at night, you break out on an approach, there is a natural tendency to wrongly identify the 'runway environment' as the actual runway ESPECIALLY when the lights are over water or when there are little other ground features showing. I had a FO think that the ILS lights were the runway lights in LGA coming in on the ILS to 22 during a crummy weather night.

Commonly known as the "black hole effect", it is a very real optical illusion that can occur in both the environs you cite as well as others, and have bitten many pilots and crews from a variety of backgrounds, experience levels, and flight operations, both civil as well as military. The common tendency is to land short, due to the illusion of being higher than actual. Visual approaches and non-precision final approaches, especially on runways where no visual glidepath aid is present or operating, are particularly susceptible.

 

[MikeD]

For those not familiar, both very challenging and hazardous situations requiring high SA with continuous evaluation and reevaluation of the progress of the approach, or departure in some cases.

Black hole effect, fixed wing:

Black hole effect, rotary wing, with snow flurries and whiteout effect on landing/takeoff:

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I'm curious about a number of things with this: Why not do the ILS 23 if you're going to shoot an approach with a more or less 90 degree crosswind? A LOC approach is a bit of a pain in fifi with having to go to FPA mode (note the threats associated- re: UPS in BHM), particularly in those conditions.

I suppose the RVRs were below mins for the RNAV directly into the wind (RNAVS are stupid simple on fifi).

That 25 year old bird took one heck of a beating!

 

[MikeD]

I'm curious about a number of things with this: Why not do the ILS 23 if you're going to shoot an approach with a more or less 90 degree crosswind? A LOC approach is a bit of a pain in fifi with having to go to FPA mode (note the threats associated- re: UPS in BHM), particularly in those conditions.

I suppose the RVRs were below mins for the RNAV directly into the wind (RNAVS are stupid simple on fifi).

The reason they chose the approach they did, should be discovered in due time, if not already known. Fair question.

That 25 year old bird took one heck of a beating!

And people say Airbus planes are cheap, fragile plastic airplanes.......

 

[ASpilot2be]

Commonly known as the "black hole effect", it is a very real optical illusion that can occur in both the environs you cite as well as others, and have bitten many pilots and crews from a variety of backgrounds, experience levels, and flight operations, both civil as well as military. The common tendency is to land short, due to the illusion of being higher than actual. Visual approaches and non-precision final approaches, especially on runways where no visual glidepath aid is present or operating, are particularly susceptible.

There are some runways we go to that are absolutely dark hole approaches. Gotta be on your game going there.

 

[Vector4Food]

I'm curious about a number of things with this: Why not do the ILS 23 if you're going to shoot an approach with a more or less 90 degree crosswind?

SPECI CYHZ 290414Z 34024G33KT 3/4SM R14/P6000FT/U -SN DRSN BKN010
OVC018 M06/M07 A2965 RMK SF7SC1 SLP046=

METAR is reported in degrees true.

Variation at CYHZ is 21 degrees... so roughly 36024G33KT... 50 degree crosswind not 90.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

SPECI CYHZ 290414Z 34024G33KT 3/4SM R14/P6000FT/U -SN DRSN BKN010
OVC018 M06/M07 A2965 RMK SF7SC1 SLP046=

METAR is reported in degrees true.

Variation at CYHZ is 21 degrees... so roughly 36024G33KT... 50 degree crosswind not 90.

Ah! Well, there you have it. I used to fly there in the CRJ- things could definitely get quite sporty!

 

[deadstick]

For those not familiar, both very challenging and hazardous situations requiring high SA with continuous evaluation and reevaluation of the progress of the approach, or departure in some cases.

Black hole effect, fixed wing:

The Caravan pilot stayed above the PAPI, though. I seem to remember that RWY5 had PAPI, too. I'm wondering whether something else is going to come out of this.

 

[MikeD]

The Caravan pilot stayed above the PAPI, though. I seem to remember that RWY5 had PAPI, too. I'm wondering whether something else is going to come out of this.

The idea being, there is a PAPI, or other visual glidepath available. The effect is particularly insidious when that reference is either out of service or non-existant.....due to it just not being there, or being obscured in some way.

Of course, as previously mentioned, this is just all basic discussion; and all, some, or none of this may apply to the accident in question.

 

[Kingairer]

RVR was only 5000, which was the min for the approach. add in the high winds, and snow, and they had their hands full. The time that they were visual would've been relatively limited and factor in they are likely transitioning to manual flying right at the same time as all this as well.

 

[Richman]

The TSB won't mess around or rush due to pressure. They learned their lesson after CASB was disbanded.

This. I've met a few TSB types, and they are definitely "have all their stuff in one container" type folks. Very cool customers.

Got to love the classic BBC understatement: "Please, Sir, just a one mint? It's only wafer thin."

Richman