AA runway incursion at LAX, high-speed abort

Kingairer said:
Add in that all things are not equal in that ATC is yelling at you to cancel takeoff clearance. They may have not even been aware of the reason, or at least not 100%.
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I would put some amount of money on this. I’ve done a low speed abort because mil controllers have a really bad habit of yelling and jabbering very loudly in the background of the actual controller, and I thought someone was yelling to stop. Had a good chat with the tower supe on a land line after that, to please get their people to be more professional. That wont fix the widespread lack of awareness though. Totally side tangent, I know.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
You can’t really compare a normal landing stopping distance versus a high weight, full fuel/pax abort at a high speed.

One is a max effort stop sacrificing brakes, wheels. The other is a more leisurely affair. You can slam brakes and max reverse on landing, and stop fairly quickly, and still be able to depart again.

An RTO at a high speed with full pax/fuel and near max TOW is going to be ugly.

Yeeting over planes you say? Well, you feel confident stopping in 3000 ft with a high speed RTO at max weight? I can say for my aircraft at 154mph, you go full thrust and rotate, you’ll be airborne before then.


And I even linked a story of real life pilots who continued.

There is no right or wrong answer. Just that approaching V1, the math is more likely to be in your favor to continue. If you’re aborting, you’ve already seen 3000-4000 ft clear that allows an abort to happen. At 154mph, you can be airborne in less than that distance for an A320 family at TOGA power.



To each their own.
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I really wish delta did not get rid of MQM/MQD rollover. I really need to stop flying Alaskan.
 
Always making it personal, I don’t get it. I’ve written numerous times there’s no right or wrong answer. Just that approaching V1, you’re probably better off continuing. But I don’t fault someone who stops.
 
mikecweb said:
What is the typical split between v1 and vr in a narrowbody maxed out departing LAX. In knots please, this isn’t a tripacer
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Assuming a dry runway, usually V1 = VR or just a couple knots difference.

If you have contaminants, then V1 is significantly lower (like 10-15 knots lower).

At our shop, we call V1 (verbally) at V1 minus 5 knots, as procedure. Even though by definition V1 accounts for the first pilot action to be initiated for an abort, our shop builds in the extra 5 seconds for additional reaction time and to be go-oriented near V1.

I also don’t like calling out V1VR at the same time because that sounds awkward. Having the minus 5 knot rule gives a clear verbal V1 first, and then a verbal VR. Even though the speeds for V1 and VR are the same most of the time.


Here was today’s LAX-EWR performance for takeoff on a 900ER for 25R about 85% full:


IMG_5792.jpeg
 
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Assuming a dry runway, usually V1 = VR or just a couple knots difference.

If you have contaminants, then V1 is significantly lower (like 10-15 knots lower).

At our shop, we call V1 (verbally) at V1 minus 5 knots, as procedure. Even though by definition V1 accounts for the first pilot action to be initiated for an abort, our shop builds in the extra 5 seconds for additional reaction time and to be go-oriented near V1.

I also don’t like calling out V1VR at the same time because that sounds awkward. Having the minus 5 knot rule gives a clear verbal V1 first, and then a verbal VR. Even though the speeds for V1 and VR are the same most of the time.


Here was today’s LAX-EWR performance for takeoff on a 900ER for 25R about 85% full:


View attachment 85811
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I have seen you reference the max speed of the departing aircraft was 154 MPH, or about 134 knots. If V1 were 158 (or anything close to it), no way in hell would I be firewalling the thrust levers and going all Leroy Jenkins with 150+ people behind me. But you do you, I guess.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Assuming a dry runway, usually V1 = VR or just a couple knots difference.

If you have contaminants, then V1 is significantly lower (like 10-15 knots lower).

At our shop, we call V1 (verbally) at V1 minus 5 knots, as procedure. Even though by definition V1 accounts for the first pilot action to be initiated for an abort, our shop builds in the extra 5 seconds for additional reaction time and to be go-oriented near V1.

I also don’t like calling out V1VR at the same time because that sounds awkward. Having the minus 5 knot rule gives a clear verbal V1 first, and then a verbal VR. Even though the speeds for V1 and VR are the same most of the time.


Here was today’s LAX-EWR performance for takeoff on a 900ER for 25R about 85% full:


View attachment 85811
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I guess this is what’s guiding you toward that line of thinking, the only time I have a V1/VR close is if we are empty. Typical it’s 10-20 kts different. We also call V1 at V1 has Wilbur intended.
 
mikecweb said:
I guess this is what’s guiding you toward that line of thinking, the only time I have a V1/VR close is if we are empty. Typical it’s 10-20 kts different. We also call V1 at V1 has Wilbur intended.
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The only times I’ve reliably seen a significant spread on the 767, like what you describe on your airplane, is when the runway is wet or contaminated, incidentally. It’s rare enough and different enough (‘normal’ = “V1 (micro pause), rotate”) that I try to remember to point that spread out when we do the reading of the takeoff performance.
 
mikecweb said:
I really wish delta did not get rid of MQM/MQD rollover. I really need to stop flying Alaskan.
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It will always be the Mileage Plan to me! (Also I have an ‘Unobtanium Medallion’ tag on my bag in solidarity.)

It’s a really good product…As you know. There are parts of it service-wise I consider better than ours, in fact. I’m actually flying them to get into position on a charter at the end of the month (bought a ticket; we don’t serve the route but Alaska does and ain’t nobody got time to ride on that jumpseat for four+ hours).
 
mikecweb said:
What is the typical split between v1 and vr in a narrowbody maxed out departing LAX. In knots please, this isn’t a tripacer
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Depending on weight but, were pretty maxed on our LAX-JFK runs, ive had anywhere from 145-163 recently (v1). Vr is typically either right at V1 or 3ish knots above.
 
I think that’s another difference between WB and NB 320/737. For us, most of the time, V1 also basically equals the speed we can rotate.


guywhoflies said:
I have seen you reference the max speed of the departing aircraft was 154 MPH, or about 134 knots. If V1 were 158 (or anything close to it), no way in hell would I be firewalling the thrust levers and going all Leroy Jenkins with 150+ people behind me. But you do you, I guess.
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These are 900ER numbers. My recollection from A320/321 days are the Bus were lower V1 and VRs on average, along with lower approach ref speeds.
 
bp said:
performing the 900ER Vmu demo trying to hop a triple seven because you read about it on a message board in 2005 is certainly a decision
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That was a 320 at AWA. And they passed in front of them at A5 or A6, certainly not full length.

Vmu is actually a lowish number, all things considered. The nose will unstick. The rest of you won’t fly.

But at 135 knots when say your V1 is 145 and VR is 148? You’ll get airborne.
 
Also curious for anyone here at DL, UA, and AA on the 737 and 320 family. Does your shop call V1 at exactly V1 as procedure? Or any procedure like V1 minus 5 kts for calling V1 verbally?
 
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