AA runway incursion at LAX, high-speed abort

[ZapBrannigan]

I think I'm with CC. Airplanes are made for flying, not for stopping. Approaching V1? Firewall thrust and rotate. It'll fly. All assuming the airplane is over a mile away as it apparently was here.

That said, the startle factor and inability to determine how far away the airplane is would make that a tough decision to make in the moment.

 

[mikecweb]

I think I'm with CC. Airplanes are made for flying, not for stopping. Approaching V1? Firewall thrust and rotate. It'll fly. All assuming the airplane is over a mile away as it apparently was here.

That said, the startle factor and inability to determine how far away the airplane is would make that a tough decision to make in the moment.

I would think the same but since I've flown a heavy I've rotated in the last 1/4 of the runway way more than I've stopped in the last 1/3. Put another way, the planes I've flown in the past 10 years stop really really good. I rarely use anything other than min. Max breaking or RTO is jarring.

We are now depending on firewall thrust to clear an airplane on the same runway vs. stopping in time? An we are going to make that distinction rolling down the runway at night? You guys must have some super depth perception. Through the HUD I wouldnt be able to tell 6000' away vs 8000' at night in a split second to then firewall thrust and clear the tail of a 777.

 

[Kingairer]

I would think the same but since I've flown a heavy I've rotated in the last 1/4 of the runway way more than I've stopped in the last 1/3. Put another way, the planes I've flown in the past 10 years stop really really good. I rarely use anything other than min. Max breaking or RTO is jarring.

We are now depending on firewall thrust to clear an airplane on the same runway vs. stopping in time? An we are going to make that distinction rolling down the runway at night? You guys must have some super depth perception. Through the HUD I wouldnt be able to tell 6000' away vs 8000' at night in a split second to then firewall thrust and clear the tail of a 777.

Add in that all things are not equal in that ATC is yelling at you to cancel takeoff clearance. They may have not even been aware of the reason, or at least not 100%.

 

[CFIT99]

(See, LOTR + Pee Wee’s Big House in one single post!)

I laughed more than I should at this post..and I read it in a very specific voice...like very specific

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Add in that all things are not equal in that ATC is yelling at you to cancel takeoff clearance. They may have not even been aware of the reason, or at least not 100%.

ATC always yells Stop. They did at United v Atlas in ORD. Problem with that is, that guy is going to stop at literally the worst spot (on the runway). Instead of keeping on moving and clearing the active runway. I can only imagine it’s a natural human instinct to say something, anything in that case.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I would think the same but since I've flown a heavy I've rotated in the last 1/4 of the runway way more than I've stopped in the last 1/3. Put another way, the planes I've flown in the past 10 years stop really really good. I rarely use anything other than min. Max breaking or RTO is jarring.

We are now depending on firewall thrust to clear an airplane on the same runway vs. stopping in time? An we are going to make that distinction rolling down the runway at night? You guys must have some super depth perception. Through the HUD I wouldnt be able to tell 6000' away vs 8000' at night in a split second to then firewall thrust and clear the tail of a 777.

You’ve done a real life 154mph abort in the M11? That’s gotta be spicy!

A heavy changes the equation, I have no experience on any WB. But a NB A319/320/321? I’d still think I’d rather go airborne at 154mph than carry out a high speed RTO. Since we are talking spatial reference not being there, how do you know a very high speed RTO will stop the airplane before hitting the 777 ahead?

At 154mph rejecting, how much runway will you use? I can only imagine you’ll use equal, or more, runway than to go TOGA and start pulling up carefully. Like at DCA, you can always turn left / right after takeoff if their tail is concern. Personally I’d rather get the most vertical lift without losing any to the horz component in a turn, so go straight out. But again it depends. Just food for thought. No right / wrong answer.

 

[JordanD]

I’d probably also rather take my chances with an excursion swerving to the side at a relatively low speed to avoid them rather than betting my life that we clear the top of them.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Here’s a guy who is a HAL pilot now (and an author), back in his AWA days, the incursion at LAS.

He pulled up 10-15 knots below VR. Sluggish takeoff he says. But they had to do what they had to do.

IMO, great job.

Very long, but worth a read…

Am. West Pilot Report #6 - The Near Miss - Airliners.net

 

[scooter2525]

I think I'm with CC. Airplanes are made for flying, not for stopping. Approaching V1? Firewall thrust and rotate. It'll fly. All assuming the airplane is over a mile away as it apparently was here.

That said, the startle factor and inability to determine how far away the airplane is would make that a tough decision to make in the moment.

Impressive performance numbers that spit out a yolo maneuver.

 

[mikecweb]

You’ve done a real life 154mph abort in the M11? That’s gotta be spicy!

A heavy changes the equation, I have no experience on any WB. But a NB A319/320/321? I’d still think I’d rather go airborne at 154mph than carry out a high speed RTO. Since we are talking spatial reference not being there, how do you know a very high speed RTO will stop the airplane before hitting the 777 ahead?

At 154mph rejecting, how much runway will you use? I can only imagine you’ll use equal, or more, runway than to go TOGA and start pulling up carefully. Like at DCA, you can always turn left / right after takeoff if their tail is concern. Personally I’d rather get the most vertical lift without losing any to the horz component in a turn, so go straight out. But again it depends. Just food for thought. No right / wrong answer.

My airplane is in kts. I assumed the 737 is as well. I have not done a reject at 135kts but I routinely land at over 150kts and can stop in way less than 6000’ and that’s at medium brakes and idle reverse which isn’t even close to max/rto and max reverse.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

My airplane is in kts. I assumed the 737 is as well. I have not done a reject at 135kts but I routinely land at over 150kts and can stop in way less than 6000’ and that’s at medium brakes and idle reverse which isn’t even close to max/rto and max reverse.

I know you’re not comparing a normal landing distance to a high speed RTO at a heavy transcon pax load, fuel load, etc.

 

[mikecweb]

I know you’re not comparing a normal landing distance to a high speed RTO at a heavy transcon pax load, fuel load, etc.

Well we’re comparing an MD11 to an a321 and trying to advocate yeeting over airplanes at unknown distances.
This is why I have you on ignore. I regret giving you 30 secs of my time.

 

[guywhoflies]

I laughed more than I should at this post..and I read it in a very specific voice...like very specific

 

[Kingairer]

I know you’re not comparing a normal landing distance to a high speed RTO at a heavy transcon pax load, fuel load, etc.

With all that and looks like they made B-6.

 

[BobDDuck]

With all that and looks like they made B-6.

AUTOBRAKES MAX is no joke.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Well we’re comparing an MD11 to an a321 and trying to advocate yeeting over airplanes at unknown distances.
This is why I have you on ignore. I regret giving you 30 secs of my time.

Of the airplanes I might consider a ‘yeet’ in the 321 of any variety is not among them.

 

[Skåning]

Of the airplanes I might consider a ‘yeet’ in the 321 of any variety is not among them.

Light 321neo is *chef's kiss

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Well we’re comparing an MD11 to an a321 and trying to advocate yeeting over airplanes at unknown distances.
This is why I have you on ignore. I regret giving you 30 secs of my time.

You can’t really compare a normal landing stopping distance versus a high weight, full fuel/pax abort at a high speed.

One is a max effort stop sacrificing brakes, wheels. The other is a more leisurely affair. You can slam brakes and max reverse on landing, and stop fairly quickly, and still be able to depart again.

An RTO at a high speed with full pax/fuel and near max TOW is going to be ugly.

Yeeting over planes you say? Well, you feel confident stopping in 3000 ft with a high speed RTO at max weight? I can say for my aircraft at 154mph, you go full thrust and rotate, you’ll be airborne before then.


And I even linked a story of real life pilots who continued.

There is no right or wrong answer. Just that approaching V1, the math is more likely to be in your favor to continue. If you’re aborting, you’ve already seen 3000-4000 ft clear that allows an abort to happen. At 154mph, you can be airborne in less than that distance for an A320 family at TOGA power.



To each their own.

 

[CFI A&P]

Sure, we all know the discipline involved in V1, and we’re reminded of that as every pre-takeoff briefing discusses reasons for aborting takeoff, and a runway incursion downfield seems like a good one.

It’s tough to imagine the startle factor, then doing advanced math while accelerating to evaluate the trajectory, assess if the intruder is inside the TERPs clearway and will the part 25 jet you’re in have the performance to out climb the threat without violating the pitch limitations causing damage to your own aircraft from a tail strike or being overruled by whatever pitch governing software the aircraft has.

Everyone walked away, unlike Tenerife (different cause but that was the possible outcome here). Good job by the crew.

 

[///AMG]

Having been to the “big brown desk” with ALPA reps, the FAA POI, HR and counsel, Captains Emergency Authority isn’t “the one ring to rule them all” that us in Middle Earth assumes it to be.

There’s no “He said the magic word!”

(See, LOTR + Pee Wee’s Big House in one single post!)

I thankfully have no comparable story, but an Airbnb i stayed at somewhat recently had a wifi password of “oneringtoruleall” or something to that effect. I’m not a LOTR guy, so i had to subsequently google it