AA runway incursion at LAX, high-speed abort

[derg]

You HS abort most Airbii (Airbuses? Airbusii?), at least, oh you’re done.

I did, well, I was FO, uhh, well, I participated in about a 140 knot RTO in an MD-90 and the amount of FOD coming off the tires, and where it went, was amazing.

“#2’s a little spicy, captain, single engine back to the gate?”

 

[SteveC]

In this particular case, that traffic is at the end of a 12,091 ft runway and you’re at 154mph, still roughly ~8000 ft from that traffic. Again I wasn’t there, don’t know their Vspeeds. But I’d be tempted to continue and takeoff. The risk ratio versus a high speed abort. It all depends.

Are you assuming that the PF knew how far away the incursion was happening, in real time?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Are you assuming that the PF knew how far away the incursion was happening, in real time?

?


You can see 25R down the entire length.

 

[derg]

Are you assuming that the PF knew how far away the incursion was happening, in real time?

Rotating and assuming that first stage climb is going to clear an incursion is a bridge too far.

If I was giving the crew a line cink in that situation, it’s going to make for a spicy debrief

 

[nc1982]

Rotating and assuming that first stage climb is going to clear an incursion is a bridge too far.

If I was giving the crew a line cink in that situation, it’s going to make for a spicy debrief

Not if gods gift to aviation CC is in the left seat.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

So much for a rational discussion.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Rotating and assuming that first stage climb is going to clear an incursion is a bridge too far.

If I was giving the crew a line cink in that situation, it’s going to make for a spicy debrief

Emergency authority to meet the extend of the emergency, to ensure a safe outcome.




Sometimes you have no choice. United v Atlas at O’Hare. America West v Air Canada at LAS. You’re pulling up, not stopping.


And speaking of spicy, have you seen the track record on high speed RTOs?

 

[MikeD]

it depends. It’s somewhat situational.

Could be a situation where if the incursion is close enough when it happens, your speed high enough, and the incursion aircraft blocking the runway, that executing a high speed RTO won’t guarantee that you won’t still slam into the incursion aircraft, when you could’ve gotten airborne and even made a left/right check turn when breaking ground if needed.

Or could be a situation where you’re slow enough or the incursion is distant enough, where an abort would be successful without further damage or destruction.

No single answer that covers all situations here. This where judgement and experience come in, those things that you are paid to utilize when the situation calls for them.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Idk how AA is but at 9E a conversation had to be had with the CP or his designee after a RTO. I THINK DL may be the same. I wish that was standard. After a high speed RTO I’m not going back out for more fun. Hell even after a low speed RTO there may need to be some reflection depending on what caused it.

I'm glad someone bothered to write down (in fairly clear terms in a QRH, no less) post-RTO actions, since it's something that is jointly rare and adrenaline-inducing.

 

[mwflyer]

Not if gods gift to aviation CC is in the left seat.

Exactly. Whatever choice he makes in the plane is ALWAYS the correct one. He’s the only pilot that’s never made a mistake in the airplane. He’s even passed all his written exams on the first attempt!

 

[Boris Badenov]

That's also not a a speed that matters in this case.

There's only one left! Bring it on home!

 

[SteveC]

There's only one left! Bring it on home!

Vmcg maybe???

 

[Skåning]

Vmcg maybe???

VP - fastest time from brake release to calling the lead for a potty break

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Exactly. Whatever choice he makes in the plane is ALWAYS the correct one. He’s the only pilot that’s never made a mistake in the airplane. He’s even passed all his written exams on the first attempt!

This is some fallacy type conclusion. You haven’t flown with me, so you wouldn’t know. I’ve never said I’ve only made correct decisions. And I’m certainly not error/mistake free.

I think MikeD said it more better than I did, and what he’s saying is what I meant.


Written tests in the U.S. are a joke. The question bank is known ahead of time. Back when I did it, you could literally use Shepherd Air for one day and pass the written. What we should have are EASA level written exams, thorough examinations on each subject at hand (eg, meteorology).

 

[mikecweb]

The crew did a fine job, everyone is able to walk away. We'll see what the investigation leads to. Flight radar 24 data to then judge a V2 speed... I mean Vr speed...or whatever speed is pointless. @BobDDuck had the closest look at all this and even he's resisting the urge to make a judgement.

The idea that someone at night can see how far down the runway the incursion is taking place, while being told to reject, and remembering what the stop margin is and saying nawww I'd just consider if I'd clear their tail or not I'll just send it????

 

[derg]

Emergency authority to meet the extend of the emergency, to ensure a safe outcome.




Sometimes you have no choice. United v Atlas at O’Hare. America West v Air Canada at LAS. You’re pulling up, not stopping.


And speaking of spicy, have you seen the track record on high speed RTOs?

Having been to the “big brown desk” with ALPA reps, the FAA POI, HR and counsel, Captains Emergency Authority isn’t “the one ring to rule them all” that us in Middle Earth assumes it to be.

There’s no “He said the magic word!”

(See, LOTR + Pee Wee’s Big House in one single post!)

 

[SteveC]

Having been to the “big brown desk” with ALPA reps, the FAA POI, HR and counsel, Captains Emergency Authority isn’t “the one ring to rule them all” that us in Middle Earth assumes it to be.

Sweet analogy.

 

[derg]

Sweet analogy.

Well, when I walked out of the hearing with merely a “letter of correction” because the FAA wanted much, much more from the Captain but that would have meant the other FO and I would have gotten completely hosed, that was the message I was charged with carrying on.

“Tell your friends…”

 

[Kingairer]

In this particular case, that traffic is at the end of a 12,091 ft runway and you’re at 154mph, still roughly ~8000 ft from that traffic. Again I wasn’t there, don’t know their Vspeeds. But I’d be tempted to continue and takeoff. The risk ratio versus a high speed abort. It all depends.

Would they have cleared the DHL? Yes, probably, most likely. Could they stop easily and not even make it close. Yes they did. I am not sure how this is really debatable. There would be situations where you would have to make a quick big decision to continue the takeoff to clear the aircraft seeing that potentially you wouldnt have time to stop, but this wasnt one of those times based on the ground track shown above. Anything about 80 knots is a mandatory return to gate and mx inspection at AA.

 

[derg]

Would they have cleared the DHL? Yes, probably, most likely. Could they stop easily and not even make it close. Yes they did. I am not sure how this is really debatable. There would be situations where you would have to make a quick big decision to continue the takeoff to clear the aircraft seeing that potentially you wouldnt have time to stop, but this wasnt one of those times based on the ground track shown above. Anything about 80 knots is a mandatory return to gate and mx inspection at AA.

We have a “Post RTO Considerations” guide to run through after an RTO and, like us, anything over 80 knots is a high speed rejected takeoff and (only because my iPad is out and I’m teaching today) absolute bare minimum we’ve got to have a chat with Flight Control and the Duty Pilot about the operation after assessing the aircraft condition. And the bus has a interesting habit, with the brake temps of saying “Oh man, we’re OK…” then two minutes later a “HOT BRAKES” ECAM and drum temps that you didn’t know were possible on Earth.