AA Pilot disciplined for taxiing too slow

I feel sorry for them. Really, I do. They're stuck in the cross-fire, and that's unfortunate. But we have no other weapons at our disposal. This is just the reality of airline labor relations.

If the union wants to make the labor issues public, the last thing you want to do is piss off the public. Be the better side, do everything you can for the customers.

From a management perspective, I know you hate it, why would I want to pay pilots more money that do everything they can to cost me more money? Perform better and deserve the pay increase. That is how management thinks.

Merit is how management works. Yes it is tougher on an individual bases for pilots, but come on, you want the pilots to be united. Show the pilot group is worth the extra money. If you want more money from management, think like management.

If you are constantly bashing management on public forums, friends, media, and other pilots, why should they pay you more for you? Give me one reason? If pilots start taxiing too slow and causing delays that would not normally be a delay or cancellation, why should they pay you more?

The idea is to make them WANT to pay you more, not NEED to pay you more.
 
American does taxi slow, it must be in their corporate culture or something. We've all been behind them.
 
Captain Duties

American does taxi slow, it must be in their corporate culture or something. We've all been behind them.

I guy I know at AA says there is way too much stuff for the captain to do while taxiing. He's a captain and he has to make the "FAs prepare for departure" PA! There is also a litany of other things for the captain to respond to while taxiing according to him.
 
Re: Captain Duties

AA slow? Not really. Our FOM specifies that we should never taxi faster than 20 kts or make turns faster than 10 kts. I've never been held up by an AA airplane, especially if I'm in compliance with our company rules.
 
Re: Leading by Example

What This Means to You

We can only conclude after sitting through this whole joke of a process that our pilots are in jeopardy simply for coming in contact with the Chief Pilots, and that you should avoid any conversation with them except that which is absolutely essential to your duties. Idle chitchat with the Chiefs should be avoided, because anything you say to them can be used against you or another pilot in a disciplinary hearing.

If asked to engage in conversations politely inform them that your Union speaks for you.

Damn. That's crazy. Union telling pilots to not even talk to Chief Pilots.. What's the world coming to?
 
This is such crap. I commend the pilot for taxing slow. I sincerely hope the FAA looks into the other pilot for using his cell phone on the taxiway. What have things come to? I fly American often and they are in my opinion the best carrier along with Delta to travel on.
 
Wow, it hits you even harder when you know all the names being mentioned. I worked with CA Osbourne during my internship at AA, along with all the other fleet captains. In fact I met all the company pilots including Hetterman. Of course this was nearly 4 years ago. I wish I could go back, knowing what I know now about union vs. management pilots. I'd have a different perspective. And I'm pro-union too now.
 
If the union wants to make the labor issues public, the last thing you want to do is piss off the public. Be the better side, do everything you can for the customers.

Doesn't work that way. The public is never on our side. They consider us to be a bunch of "overpaid, underworked, whiners."

Perform better and deserve the pay increase. That is how management thinks.

No, it's really not. Airline management views you as nothing but a cost unit. No matter how much you're getting paid, it's too much. No matter how well you perform, it will never be good enough to deserve what you already make, let alone a raise. Welcome to the real world of airline labor/management relations.

If pilots start taxiing too slow and causing delays that would not normally be a delay or cancellation, why should they pay you more?

Because if they don't, their entire airline will collapse and their shareholders will string them up. The only way to make advances for our profession is to hold their feet to the fire. Captain Beebe always used to say "management isn't going to give you anything; you have to fight for it!" He was absolutely right. Until you force them into a corner, management will never give you another dime. It doesn't matter how well you perform. As far as they're concerned, a trained monkey could do your job more efficiently than you do, so you'll never be worth one red cent.

The idea is to make them WANT to pay you more, not NEED to pay you more.

They will never want to pay you more. Until they need to pay you more, they won't. Bring their operation to a standstill and you'll get what you want. Until then, the beatings will continue until morale improves.
 
If the union wants to make the labor issues public, the last thing you want to do is piss off the public. Be the better side, do everything you can for the customers.

From a management perspective, I know you hate it, why would I want to pay pilots more money that do everything they can to cost me more money? Perform better and deserve the pay increase. That is how management thinks.

Merit is how management works. Yes it is tougher on an individual bases for pilots, but come on, you want the pilots to be united. Show the pilot group is worth the extra money. If you want more money from management, think like management.

If you are constantly bashing management on public forums, friends, media, and other pilots, why should they pay you more for you? Give me one reason? If pilots start taxiing too slow and causing delays that would not normally be a delay or cancellation, why should they pay you more?

The idea is to make them WANT to pay you more, not NEED to pay you more.

Managment will take your merit to their bank and laugh all the way. Seriously, theyll never pay you just because they want to. Theyll always try to pay you the absolute least they can, and still get away with it....Im all for reminders of who handles the day to day operations out on the ramp...
Hey PCL....WE AGREE!
 
I was told on the train to mommy's today that I make $275,000 a year and have 20 days off a month.
 
There are so many contract and regulatory violations by the accuser and the company on this one that it probably won't even proceed to arbitration before the company backs down in grievance. I'm sure he'll receive full back pay and removal of the letter from his file. This is absolutely absurd. And as for Mr. Osborne, no longer deserving of the respectful title of "Captain," I hope the APA members make his life as difficult as possible on the line. #### you, Mr. Osborne.

I did love all of this by the APA, though:

" In the meantime, we are asking all pilots to consider using both engines during all taxi operations and to use caution during taxi operations in order to protect yourself from any accusation by management of creating a risk to your passengers. First Officers paired with chief pilots should act with courtesy and professionalism, but should protect themselves by refraining from non-operational conversation. Any pilots observing chief pilots violating FARs or company policy should use the FAA Safety Hotline or contact the APA Safety Committee immediately."

Well played, gentlemen.



It is "cool" when your company refuses to bargain in good faith and needs a little reminder about who it is that keeps their operation running smoothly. Don't you work for ASA? If so, that contract that you enjoy right now was achieved by actions like this.

PCL128,
For the record I am with APA on this one.

However, guys that run their mouths like you bring disgrace on this profession. Last week, you were hoping someone slashed some guys tires. This week you are advocating a breakdown in CRM by the creation of tension and difficulties in the cockpit of a transport aircraft. The cockpit is not the place for infantile stunts. You come across as an unruly child or a nutjob. If you want to be a man of influence, choose your words wisely.

Negative. This is not a breakdown in CRM......No one suggested not doing their job. Fairly certain most op specs don't say much about idle chit-chat on the flight deck. Do your job....nothing more, nothing less. No breakdown in CRM. Don't expose yourself to extra scrutiny by chatting w/ the mgmt pilot who happens to be your CA for the day.
 
The idea is to make them WANT to pay you more, not NEED to pay you more.

It's been proven that rarely (if ever) happens! When mgmt types get pay and work rule concessions from employees during negotiations and then give themselves bonuses for doing so....shows me they really don't give a damn about the pilot group regardless of productivity.
 
I feel sorry for them. Really, I do. They're stuck in the cross-fire, and that's unfortunate. But we have no other weapons at our disposal. This is just the reality of airline labor relations.

You know, if the delay of a couple of minutes means someone misses his connection, he screwed up.

With so many flights being delayed these days, I would say that anyone who books a connecting flight with less than an hour to play with is playing with fire.

This passenger is just fine with a crew taxing at a speed they think is appropriate.
 
From a management perspective, I know you hate it, why would I want to pay pilots more money that do everything they can to cost me more money? Perform better and deserve the pay increase. That is how management thinks.

At my airline we are in contract negotiations. 2 months ago we were the number 2 on-time airline behind Hawaiian (which most pilots say dont count), and last month, we beat them out and were the number one on-time airline. And our times are real because acars sends the numbers not like some other airlines. But our Management is still jerking us around at the negotiating table. We performed the BEST, and I guarantee you the airline doesnt feel we deserve a pay raise.


The idea is to make them WANT to pay you more, not NEED to pay you more.

In any business you never want to increase cost. Why as a business owner would you WANT to pay someone more?
 
I have also heard the theory that AA pilots have a lot to do on taxi. Some of the ex-TWA people I know said procedures at AA were MUCH different (and they felt not as good. The TWA guys were kind of snobby about their training and safety record).

Anyway, can anyone elaborate on this. I always assumed they were taxing so slow as a labor/management dispute, but now am thinking their procedures just invite slow taxi.

I hope this Osborne has certificate action - what a Bozo. Good for APA for standing up.
 
I'm actually giving you guys some actual good reasons to do something like striking for something other than safety.

PCL you said the public thinks of pilots as, "overpaid, under worked, whiners" Guess what? You guys made that stereotype. You say the public is never on your side. Well I wonder why, you keep screwing over the public trying to get a leg up in your war with management. That will definitely draw the crowds to support you. :banghead:

If you actually make a case for yourself the public will be on your side, right now the only case you guys have is that you are overworked. the overpaid and whiner stereotype still stands strong. Why? Well airline pilots are whiners, what do you expect. All I ever see is "management does it again" type threads. Always so negative. Kinda hard to disprove the "whiner" stereotype, especially with the, "we aren't going to wear our hat" day and "lets not turn on our tail light" routine.

Also you know trying to screw over management all the time will only result in them screwing you back. It doesn't just work one way.

Why do you think running the airline into the ground will help you? You know the owners of the airlines are already rich, they could just leave like they have done in the past and still be rich, instead you would put yourself on the street along with thousands of others than have no relation to management just because it is the only way to get back at management which probably wouldn't lose any sleep over the fact their failing airline took a dump.

Work like you want to get payed. If it doesn't help the cause, then you can strike. When the media catches wind of the strike you have something to actually back up your cause other than the "management gets a bonus and we get less money" bit. Although true, at that point it just looks like you are overpaid, under worked, whiners with the background you have created for yourself by essentially screwing over the only people that can help you.

(A lot of the "you"s in the above should be read as unions for the most part. I am not blaming PCL for all problems in the airline or anything like that.)

In any business you never want to increase cost. Why as a business owner would you WANT to pay someone more?

If the pilot group is making you lose money why pay them more? By the logic above you make a point to not increase your wages.

The reason management would increase wages is for growth. Increased wages will keep the pilot group motivated. This will also bring in some of the best pilots around as they will be able to pick and choose who they want to hire. Service on the aircraft will be better thus making more passengers want to fly the airline. More passengers means more money. You have to spend money to make money. Management knows that. They will not spend money on something that has caused a loss in revenue.
 
I gotta wonder though if this "slow taxiing" captain has ever had a deal with an FA getting hurt in the past though....

Trip i just finished, captain had a previous issue where they brought the plane to a quick stop-the result was the FA injuring her wrist, and having to take alot of time off work to get it better (legit injury).
His taxiing was within reason, but still not on the crazy end of slow or fast.
 
I'm actually giving you guys some actual good reasons to do something like striking for something other than safety.

PCL you said the public thinks of pilots as, "overpaid, under worked, whiners" Guess what? You guys made that stereotype. You say the public is never on your side. Well I wonder why, you keep screwing over the public trying to get a leg up in your war with management. That will definitely draw the crowds to support you. :banghead:

If you actually make a case for yourself the public will be on your side, right now the only case you guys have is that you are overworked. the overpaid and whiner stereotype still stands strong. Why? Well airline pilots are whiners, what do you expect. All I ever see is "management does it again" type threads. Always so negative. Kinda hard to disprove the "whiner" stereotype, especially with the, "we aren't going to wear our hat" day and "lets not turn on our tail light" routine.

Also you know trying to screw over management all the time will only result in them screwing you back. It doesn't just work one way.

Why do you think running the airline into the ground will help you? You know the owners of the airlines are already rich, they could just leave like they have done in the past and still be rich, instead you would put yourself on the street along with thousands of others than have no relation to management just because it is the only way to get back at management which probably wouldn't lose any sleep over the fact their failing airline took a dump.

Work like you want to get payed. If it doesn't help the cause, then you can strike. When the media catches wind of the strike you have something to actually back up your cause other than the "management gets a bonus and we get less money" bit. Although true, at that point it just looks like you are overpaid, under worked, whiners with the background you have created for yourself by essentially screwing over the only people that can help you.

(A lot of the "you"s in the above should be read as unions for the most part. I am not blaming PCL for all problems in the airline or anything like that.)



If the pilot group is making you lose money why pay them more? By the logic above you make a point to not increase your wages.

The reason management would increase wages is for growth. Increased wages will keep the pilot group motivated. This will also bring in some of the best pilots around as they will be able to pick and choose who they want to hire. Service on the aircraft will be better thus making more passengers want to fly the airline. More passengers means more money. You have to spend money to make money. Management knows that. They will not spend money on something that has caused a loss in revenue.

You have NO idea what you are talking about...end of story:)
 
I have also heard the theory that AA pilots have a lot to do on taxi. Some of the ex-TWA people I know said procedures at AA were MUCH different (and they felt not as good. The TWA guys were kind of snobby about their training and safety record).

Anyway, can anyone elaborate on this. I always assumed they were taxing so slow as a labor/management dispute, but now am thinking their procedures just invite slow taxi.

American pilots do have a ton to do on taxi. Their checklists are the longest I've ever seen. Absolutely ridiculous. Plus the Captain basically has to do everything himself. FOs aren't allowed to engage the engine starter, so the Captain has to do it. If you've ever been up front on a DC-9 or MD-80 series airplane, then you know what this means on those types: holding the damned starter switch for the entire start cycle. It's not a nice push-button like on a CRJ. You actually have to keep your finger on the switch the entire time. This means he's steering the tiller with one hand and holding the start switch with the other. Not exactly conducive for fast taxiing.

If you actually make a case for yourself the public will be on your side

Maurus, I've been doing this "union thing" for a long time. Committee member, committee chairman, elected rep, ALPA National volunteer, etc... Judging by your profile, you're pretty new to this whole industry. Take some friendly advice: listen to the guys who have been there and done that and try to learn something. Do you really think you're going to school a union rep on how unions work? Come on now.

As for the flying public, we have done focus groups and polling on this. No matter how much information you give the public, they still won't side with us. The data is clear: they just want their cheap tickets and their flight to run on time. Our problems aren't important to them, especially if it means they have to pay $2 more for a ticket to see Mickey Mouse.

Also you know trying to screw over management all the time will only result in them screwing you back. It doesn't just work one way.

We aren't the ones doing the screwing, Maurus. We just want to bargain in good faith, and they refuse. When that happens, we retaliate. We never pick a fight, we just finish it.

Why do you think running the airline into the ground will help you? You know the owners of the airlines are already rich, they could just leave like they have done in the past and still be rich, instead you would put yourself on the street along with thousands of others than have no relation to management just because it is the only way to get back at management which probably wouldn't lose any sleep over the fact their failing airline took a dump.

You need to do some research. Specifically, you should look into what settled some very recent contract disputes. Let's start with UAL contract 2000. UAL management refused to negotiate in good faith with ALPA. ALPA played nice for quite a while, but the pilots eventually had enough. This culminated in what we called the "Summer of Love" in 2000. The pilots slowed down, sick calls shot up, airplanes got written up left and right, etc... The contract was settled in no time. Flash forward to 2007. The NWA pilots were operating under a horribly concessionary contract after bankruptcy. Their work rules were decimated. Schedules were unbearable. The pilots asked management repeatedly to come back to the table to negotiate some improvements to make their lives at least somewhat livable. As usual, management said NO. They refused to even sit down and talk about it. The pilots had enough. They started a "what about BOB (block or better)" campaign. Virtually every single flight in the system overblocked for a few months. Suddenly, management had a change of heart. Amazing how that works. Management rushed back to the table and quickly agreed to a slew of work rule improvements. Another case: ASA. The ASA pilots spent over 5 years in negotiations. Management continually played games and refused to bargain in good faith. After the NMB parked them for the umpteenth time, the pilots had enough. They started taking the same actions that the UAL pilots had taken seven years prior. The result? Management suddenly decided that they were ready to make a deal. Know how long it took them to have a change of heart after the slow-down started? Three weeks! That's all it took.

Why did I just give you a history lesson? Because you need to learn what works and what doesn't. The actions I just discussed have been proven to work time and time again. The things you are advocating have never worked in this industry. From the time of C.L. Cord to Lorenzo to Steenland, they're all the same. They will never treat us with respect until we force their hand. Welcome to the real world.

If it doesn't help the cause, then you can strike.

I suggest you study the Railway Labor Act so you can understand how the process works. Simply put, we can't just strike whenever we feel it's appropriate. The government has to approve our strikes, and they rarely do. I would also recommend that you read "Flying the Line, Volumes I and II." They will give you a complete history of airline labor relations from the beginning up to the '90s.
 
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