A strange one. PC12 crash

Inverted said:
The PC-12 is a 172 with a turbine engine. It is a pussycat in every sense of the word. Literally no bad habits, it never flies in unstable flight regimes, it never exhibits bad behavior. If it is to simply fix the person behind the controls, then we have lost the usefulness of type ratings and type training in general, for all aircraft.

To put a finer point on it, there really isn't an easier airplane to fly on the planet than a PC-12.
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Agreed, I have several hundred hours of PC-12 time and think it’s a very docile plane. But it’s not the plane that’s the issue, it’s the situations it will allow you to get into. A 911 GT3 is the easiest and most driver friendly car I’ve had the privilege to manhandle around a track, but I’m sure not going to put my 16 year old behind the wheel of one.
 
milleR said:
Agreed, I have several hundred hours of PC-12 time and think it’s a very docile plane. But it’s not the plane that’s the issue, it’s the situations it will allow you to get into. A 911 GT3 is the easiest and most driver friendly car I’ve had the privilege to manhandle around a track, but I’m sure not going to put my 16 year old behind the wheel of one.
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But that really highlights that it is two different arguments. I have driven the GT2 and GT3 Cup cars at track events (we should geek out offline) and although I generally agree with your statement, I don't know that I agree with the comparison. A GT3 is an F-16. A BMW M5 is an absolute monster, perfectly capable of killing its driver and all occupants at a moments notice given its power and weight, yet kids drive those all the time. An M5 as high performance as it is, is not a race car. A PC-12 isn't a swept wing jet, it isn't a fighter, it isn't unstable, it isn't quirky. Proper type training should literally be all you need to fly one. I went to Simcom for my training eons ago and felt the training was totally fine for the airplane and I was a wet ticket commercial pilot when I was flying it. I think IFR proficiency and piloting skills are a common theme in aircraft accidents and this is going to come down to this pilot jacking it all up and killing everyone on board.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I’m not doubting quality issues. I’m saying the fact that he actually talking, so soon after his own near death experience in a plane crash. If there’s time for humble pie, one would think this would be it.
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People like him lack self awareness and it is never time for humble pie. Reminds me of some politician.
 
milleR said:
Idk, I just find the notion that a PPL with hp and complex endorsements can legally hop behind the wheel of a PC-12 and go for a spin to be … questionable at best.
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They’re very, very easy planes to fly. If you can fly a Caravan safely you can fly a PC-12 safely. The initial training is important. A pilot that has gone through Initial at FSI will know how to deal with FMS and autopilot issues. Like any plane, proficiency is important.
 
Inverted said:
But that really highlights that it is two different arguments. I have driven the GT2 and GT3 Cup cars at track events (we should geek out offline) and although I generally agree with your statement, I don't know that I agree with the comparison. A GT3 is an F-16. A BMW M5 is an absolute monster, perfectly capable of killing its driver and all occupants at a moments notice given its power and weight, yet kids drive those all the time. An M5 as high performance as it is, is not a race car. A PC-12 isn't a swept wing jet, it isn't a fighter, it isn't unstable, it isn't quirky. Proper type training should literally be all you need to fly one. I went to Simcom for my training eons ago and felt the training was totally fine for the airplane and I was a wet ticket commercial pilot when I was flying it. I think IFR proficiency and piloting skills are a common theme in aircraft accidents and this is going to come down to this pilot jacking it all up and killing everyone on board.
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Maybe that wasn't the best analogy, it was just what popped into my head sitting in a parking lot waiting for a meeting to start :)

We are all on the same page that proficiency and training is key to not becoming a smoking hole in the ground. My only point is that with a plane like the PC-12 there are zero training requirements to be met and the threshold for being legal to operate one is a private pilot cert with complex, high altitude and high performance endorsements. The FAA doesn't require an instrument rating or completion of a type specific school to fly one. So maybe I'm the crazy person in the room here, but it just seems like there should be some kind of regulatory training threshold to fly a high performance pressurized 270kt FIKI turbine powered aircraft with 9 seats and a lav. Or I'm just out to lunch which is always a distinct possibility.
 
515 AMEL, with .05 of actual. Unsure based upon what's been said/speculated here regarding the crash. The plane was at altitude and the autopilot was on, so wondering how this accident could occur? I actually got my actual on my IFR x-country, in a DA40. Definitely nothing as complex as a PC-12. Having said that and not comparing my experience to a PC-12. I do have to say that at 13k, in a piston, (with my instructor next to me) it was easy to fly in the soup and IFR at night, the DA40 in question had an inop autopilot. So staying straight and level was really just a matter of power and trim. Having said that I even though I'm IFR rated, I'd NEVER blast off alone into IFR, with my scant .05 of actual.
 
milleR said:
Maybe that wasn't the best analogy, it was just what popped into my head sitting in a parking lot waiting for a meeting to start :)

We are all on the same page that proficiency and training is key to not becoming a smoking hole in the ground. My only point is that with a plane like the PC-12 there are zero training requirements to be met and the threshold for being legal to operate one is a private pilot cert with complex, high altitude and high performance endorsements. The FAA doesn't require an instrument rating or completion of a type specific school to fly one. So maybe I'm the crazy person in the room here, but it just seems like there should be some kind of regulatory training threshold to fly a high performance pressurized 270kt FIKI turbine powered aircraft with 9 seats and a lav. Or I'm just out to lunch which is always a distinct possibility.
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Possibly the FAA is still expecting pilots to exercise good judgment. I know that sounds slightly crazy, since there seems to be an FAR or SFAR for everything except which brand of tissue to use . . .
 
Wasn’t there a PC12 crash somewhere in Montana or the Dakotas where a guy used broomsticks to clear snow/ice. And the ramper videotaped their taxi out covered in snow and yelling something along the lines of, “you guys are effin idiots to fly in this!”

Plane proceeds to takeoff and crash.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Wasn’t there a PC12 crash somewhere in Montana or the Dakotas where a guy used broomsticks to clear snow/ice. And the ramper videotaped their taxi out covered in snow and yelling something along the lines of, “you guys are effin idiots to fly in this!”

Plane proceeds to takeoff and crash.
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Yeah, it was one of the Dakotas. The video the ramper took is actually part of the publicly accessible NTSB docket. They essentially took off in a blizzard.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Wasn’t there a PC12 crash somewhere in Montana or the Dakotas where a guy used broomsticks to clear snow/ice. And the ramper videotaped their taxi out covered in snow and yelling something along the lines of, “you guys are effin idiots to fly in this!”

Plane proceeds to takeoff and crash.
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I posted two links to that crash. Of course I’ve seen this happen in a sense, at our airline. Human nature and all…
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Kind of surprised this hasn’t happened at our airline…

Then again there was the story of the guys that used vodka in the USSR to deice

🤷‍♂️
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Yea, I think we do a lot of things in the north that if something were to happen, would be a head scratcher as to why we did it like that.
 
Inverted said:
Yea, I think we do a lot of things in the north that if something were to happen, would be a head scratcher as to why we did it like that.
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Naturally, as someone who flies in “the north,” I’m super curious as to what you’re talking about.
 
There is an interesting video out on IG (can’t figure out how to copy/paste to here) taken while on their last fuel stop in Nebraska City, NE. The lead passenger of this PC-12 is filming himself, all the passengers, and the pilot. Everyone is joyful, laughing, etc.

Kind of strange listening to them and knowing they would all be gone soon after.
RIP!
 
ShortField said:
Naturally, as someone who flies in “the north,” I’m super curious as to what you’re talking about.
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I’ll take a stab at it:

-Landing in the first 10’ of the runway
-Not wanting to get de-iced because you’re rushing
-Always being in a rush
-Being in such a rush you refuse to listen to your FOs briefing

I’d rather be a CA on reserve with the worst QOL in the industry than be complicit in the garbage I saw monthly as an FO.
 
The AP in the Apex in NGs and NGXs can get wonky sometimes. It’s also a little unintuitive at times. I can see both combining in poor weather to overwhelm an inexperienced pilot.

One of my first flights in an NG was OJT at a charter carrier, after several months on legacies. Second day of training, after capturing a GS (from underneath), it promptly put us into a 2500+ fpm dive. Our trainer started to troubleshoot, but after a few seconds of watching the ocean rising, I just clicked the AP off and recovered by hand.

The guy wasn’t the greatest stick, but… if it could get a career pilot in VMC, it could get the deacon at Barn Hill Baptist with a side gig flying around the gospel singers’ ride.
 
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