9L, 9E, XJ JCBA executive summary

[jynxyjoe]

I guess I should just be happy with being a second-string Colgan pilot and taking what I get.

I don't know what you mean by this. If you are talking about MY contracts scope and expecting to coast in on it, I'm sorry but that's been explained at length. If you have some comment about B scale please reflect on ATN_pilot. If you have some other point please make it.

 

[matt152]

I think you've lost the forest for the trees. Truthfully I think you're continuing to stay lost on purpose.

Hold your breath and pout, see what that does for you.

I'm sorry if it comes across that way. I just don't think it is so unreasonable to expect everyone to be treated the same at the same company. Maybe it's my inexperience with the airline world, but I would think this would not be a big deal for a profitable company like Pinnacle to have a level field.

I reread the scope paragraph. I'm not clear as to what scope XJ lost in the JCBA. Isn't this essentially what you have at Mesaba? All pilots on the list do all the flying for the company?

 

[jynxyjoe]

I'm sorry if it comes across that way. I just don't think it is so unreasonable to expect everyone to be treated the same at the same company. Maybe it's my inexperience with the airline world, but I would think this would not be a big deal for a profitable company like Pinnacle to have a level field.

I reread the scope paragraph. I'm not clear as to what scope XJ lost in the JCBA. Isn't this essentially what you have at Mesaba? All pilots on the list do all the flying for the company?

No not so much lost. Let me put it another way, we could force our contract onto you. We were within our rights to exercise our scope and to push our contract onto you at Colgan. Unfortunately Pinnacle is still left out of the mix with no end in sight, we have to have all pilots together going forward. Between our contract language and maybe some pressure on the Pinnacle/Colgan side, the pilots had the leverage to make Pinnacle commit to a JCBA. Not only that, but to push that any further companies bought in the future are pushed into our contract, our list. Sometimes on here we talk about eliminating the whipsaw, and there are a number of other advantages. Mesaba traded the ability to instantaneously put you under us, in exchange, we ended any potential whipsaw.

You hear me bitch about the whipsaw a lot. That is a dealbreaker thing for me personally, and one of many reasons I left Colgan after the vote failed (of course watching your fellow pilots beat on is stomach turning enough). I keep going back to the whipsaw, but there are another of other great things in this contract I've tried to illustrate as well.

 

[Cruise]

Despite the moaning some CJC pilots are doing on here.....many of us see the benefit of the new TA. Also, I know somewhere in this crazy thread some uninformed CJC pilot mentioned how Colgan wasn't gaining much out from the value of the TA as compared to the other groups. This is, without question, false. In fact, CJC is gaining the most when looking at gains across the board.

While there are certainly aspects of the TA that are not superb, and some areas leave much to be desired....this agreement is leaps and bounds above where we were going w/ our individual Section 2 negotiations. To look at the few areas where the gains aren't as high as perhaps they should've been and say you're voting "NO" as a result is completely short-sighted. Do us all a favor and get educated on the subject instead of whining on an internet message board about how you're a second class citizen....you make us all look ignorant. Also, keep in mind the rates that everyone is up in arms about is still a RAISE.....at the end of the month you will still be making more than you did previously.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Echoing what cruise said, for those of you a little behind in reading and self education, there is lots of time before a vote and time to change your mind if that's in fact what you do.

There are always going to be some no votes. That's ok. As long as there are no votes for made up reasons.

 

[JrsyGuy]

Just read the summary. You guys should all be very happy. Great job by the JNC and the leaderships at all three MECs. You should be proud of the work you've done and what you've accomplished. This is a great TA.

Now, a few comments:

1. Someone asked a question about how an AirTran pilot would feel if we were paid a different wage after merging into SWA than the SWA pilots. Sorry, but that analogy doesn't hold up, because it can't happen to us. You see, unlike a Colgan pilot, I have a collective bargaining agreement. And my CBA says that Southwest management has no choice but to merge the two airlines within 18 months after acquiring us. When that happens, we automatically come under the SWA contract. So, we have no requirement to negotiate a JCBA. At CJC, on the other hand, you have no contract, and there is nothing to prohibit Pinnacle management from operating you as a separate subsidiary for the foreseeable future. They can slow down negotiations on your own contract, and you can sit without one for years to come. So, management has leverage to get you to accept something less than MSA parity, because if you don't, they don't have to merge you, and you won't get anything at all. As Seggy said, the rates are better than what you could have negotiated on your own, so accepting them now is better than rejecting them and risking separate operations.

Funny how you say the analogy can't hold up. It is the exact situation we have. Mesabas current contract has that same stipulation you speak of and since colgan is an ALPA carrier we get the ALPA protection that afford us that we get their contract the same way you would get SWA's.

2. Some of you have talked about how it "feels" to have a separate pay scale. This isn't an emotional decision for you to make, this is a business decision. From a financial and QOL perspective, is it a smarter move to take this deal, or stand your ground on the issue of separate Saab scales? Forget the emotions. Think about dollars, days off, health care, and retirement. That's what a contract is about. It's not about your feelings.

I am thinking about dollars. One extra day off isn't going to matter that much. Its a good thing but by no means industry leading. The saab scales are the bread and butter for a lot of guys. There should be complete parity for all parties invovled. No party should gain off the back of another. And there are people saying that because the saabs are on the way out that they should just be ok with working for a few years under a lower scale because they will eventually be able to get out of it.

3. This isn't a "b-scale," as some people have said. Apparently you guys haven't read Flying the Line, because a b-scale clearly divides people based on hire dates. Those people hired before the contract was signed get one set of pay rates, and those hired after get a much lower set of pay rates. It creates a permanent set of second class citizens within a pilot group. It is, in short, a nightmare. But that's not what you have here. You have a temporary situation that will affect few pilots and disappear with the next contract. In fact, it will virtually disappear under this contract as pilots bid system vacancies and move around, eliminating the people who were grandfathered. This is far from a b-scale.

It's worse than the B-scale you speak of. It takes DOH for mesaba guys and grandfathers them in and takes all of another group and takes them out? How is that ok?? I know you said it could NEVER happen to you but if it was something that they were trying to do you would be outraged. Simple as that.

4. Anyone who thinks that you're going to get the same rate on the Q400 on DOS as the CRJ gets is living in a dream world. Frankly, I'm amazed that the rates match up by the end of the agreement. I haven't asked Seggy, but I would be shocked if this wasn't a religious issue that management took a long time to get over at the table. Jets pay more than props. That's just a fact of life in the airline business. Your TA actually changes that by the end of the agreement. That's quite an achievement from the perspective of a negotiator. It changes the playing field for the next bargaining cycle.

Mesabas contract has them match up as of this very day. If a Q were to be put on mesaba property today it would get the 50 seat rate. And to say that its just never going to happen because props never equal jet is really not an intelligent argument. Not to mention the fact that the arguement hasn't even been(so far, although it completelty deserves to be) "match the Q's to the 70 seat jet rate" it instead is "get the Q to be better then the 50 seat jet rate".

Your lack of understand and experience in this area is given away by your naivety on this issue.

Soft time is huge, HUGE. I blocked 65 hours and credited over 100 one month with all of our soft time provisions. At $34 an hour, that's over $1,100 in one MONTH.

Get educated on this issue.

We already get soft money. And if we got mesabas contract we would get more soft money. My huge issue is that everyone is already getting all the soft pay extras you speak of in this TA, except for the northeast colgan guys of course which no one seems to care about, and the other pilots pay scales are being beefed up at the expense of the colgan guys. Saying we are getting improvement so we should just shut up and be happy is outrageous. I expect everyone should deserve to be on the same playing field and thats not the way it is right now and that should outrage everyone.

Why don't you just step back and see what he is saying. Jesus christ. Forget it Joe, they don't get it. I'd suggest you read Section 1, SCOPE.

Why don't you step back and put yourself in our position. I keep bringing up the analogy about what would a pinnacle guy say to seeing a XJ guys make more money flying the CRJ than he does and no one answers becuase they know they would strike if they were told that. It is absolute lunacy to expect another pilot to accept it.

 

[SrFnFly227]

To those of you saying that soft time doesn't amount to much. January bids were finally published at Pinnacle. Currently, we have at Pinnacle no min day and pay based on credit value in stead of block. Bid period is Jan 1-30. The 31st goes on Feb along with March 1 to get 3 30 day bid periods.

My schedule is 11 days off with 90h 06m credit. Scheduled block is 94h 54m. I have at least 4 days with under 4 hours of block. One day is actually worth a whopping 26 minutes since all I have is 1 deadhead. The way I see it, I would net 10-11 hours more pay under the TA, simply because of "soft money". Oh, and let's not forget that we will no longer have that stupid 15 minute rule. That will be worth an hour or two every month.

 

[JrsyGuy]

Despite the moaning some CJC pilots are doing on here.....many of us see the benefit of the new TA. Also, I know somewhere in this crazy thread some uninformed CJC pilot mentioned how Colgan wasn't gaining much out from the value of the TA as compared to the other groups. This is, without question, false. In fact, CJC is gaining the most when looking at gains across the board.

While there are certainly aspects of the TA that are not superb, and some areas leave much to be desired....this agreement is leaps and bounds above where we were going w/ our individual Section 2 negotiations. To look at the few areas where the gains aren't as high as perhaps they should've been and say you're voting "NO" as a result is completely short-sighted. Do us all a favor and get educated on the subject instead of whining on an internet message board about how you're a second class citizen....you make us all look ignorant. Also, keep in mind the rates that everyone is up in arms about is still a RAISE.....at the end of the month you will still be making more than you did previously.

I am really sad to hear you say that. I would have expected more from you.

 

[jynxyjoe]

No party should gain off the back of another.

Absolutely correct. You should not be making any contract gains off of me. You should be paid the same tomorrow as you are today. You should not be getting any boost in payscales off of me or my contract.

Q.E.D.

I hope that (funny) sarcasm proves the fallacy of your own logic. If not, no biggy, but that's kinda what it sounds like on the other side of the line you draw.

and the other pilots pay scales are being beefed up at the expense of the colgan guys.

When you say things like this, do you think we are all stupid?

 

[matt152]

Why was the choice for the JNC scope protection versus equal pay rates? Why are they mutually exclusive?

My first post in this thread recognized the significant gains made in the TA.

 

[JrsyGuy]

To those of you saying that soft time doesn't amount to much. January bids were finally published at Pinnacle. Currently, we have at Pinnacle no min day and pay based on credit value in stead of block. Bid period is Jan 1-30. The 31st goes on Feb along with March 1 to get 3 30 day bid periods.

My schedule is 11 days off with 90h 06m credit. Scheduled block is 94h 54m. I have at least 4 days with under 4 hours of block. One day is actually worth a whopping 26 minutes since all I have is 1 deadhead. The way I see it, I would net 10-11 hours more pay under the TA, simply because of "soft money". Oh, and let's not forget that we will no longer have that stupid 15 minute rule. That will be worth an hour or two every month.

How much of that do you still think will be scheduled after this contract is signed? The schedules will be better and you won't see the potential for as much soft money. Then it comes down to the compensation figures.

 

[jynxyjoe]

quoted instead of editing my post

 

[JrsyGuy]

Absolutely correct. You should not be making any contract gains off of me. You should be paid the same tomorrow as you are today. You should not be getting any boost in payscales off of me or my contract.

Q.E.D.

I hope that (funny) sarcasm proves the fallacy of your own logic. If not, no biggy, but that's kinda what it sounds like on the other side of the line you draw.

Where do you see me trying to take from you and give to myself? I don't think you should be making less than me. So I would expect you to think you shouldn't be making more then me either.

 

[nc1982]

Eh, I think I'm done. If you already made up your mind to vote no, it's your right. I didn't realize you wanted the moon.

Moving on, so are the rumors true about the new uniforms. Are we switching to the black pinnacle ones? Makes it a lot better to find a nice cheap pair of black pants on your own. It's impossible to find the blue pants that XJ wears that matches up with the blazers. And the ones we get from M&H are crappy.

 

[JrsyGuy]

When you say things like this, do you think we are all stupid?

I don't get it. It was said earlier how because the saabs are being phased out that we shouldnt push for them to get equal rate since the saab guys will be in different equipment in a few years anyway. Why the colgan guys should accept having to wait a few years to reach parity is beyond me. We are going to lose out on thousands and thousands per pilot waiting for this magical day of parity.

 

[matt152]

I didn't realize you wanted the moon.

I didn't realize equal pay was the moon.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Why was the choice for the JNC scope protection versus equal pay rates? Why are they mutually exclusive?

I'm not on the JNC. I can't speak for them.

When I asked about pushing our contract onto Colgan I was told (and I'm paraphrasing) that we sacrificed exercising our scope to bring pilots up, so that we could get Pinnacle in with us too. What's the point of giving you all the pay rates and work rules in the world if they can just transfer everything over to Pinnacle at cracker-jack wages?

 

[Tram]

I don't know what you mean by this. If you are talking about MY contracts scope and expecting to coast in on it, I'm sorry but that's been explained at length. If you have some comment about B scale please reflect on ATN_pilot. If you have some other point please make it.

He's letting a self-imposed inferiority complex come through because he doesn't fly an SJ..

 

[JrsyGuy]

Eh, I think I'm done. If you already made up your mind to vote no, it's your right. I didn't realize you wanted the moon.

Moving on, so are the rumors true about the new uniforms. Are we switching to the black pinnacle ones? Makes it a lot better to find a nice cheap pair of black pants on your own. It's impossible to find the blue pants that XJ wears that matches up with the blazers. And the ones we get from M&H are crappy.

I didn't realize it is wrongful to expect the get paid the same as another guy doing the same work

 

[SrFnFly227]

How much of that do you still think will be scheduled after this contract is signed? The schedules will be better and you won't see the potential for as much soft money. Then it comes down to the compensation figures.

Oh I agree that the schedules will get more efficient. Well maybe. I don't think we will see many days that are scheduled under 4 hours anymore, but I wonder if that will be balanced by less days scheduled to 7:58. But, even if min day were taken away, just getting block or better is worth 5-6 hours for me in January. Plus the raise.

Dollar amounts are good, but they aren't everything.