9L, 9E, XJ JCBA executive summary

Just curious, if Colgan had gone at it alone, what do you think you would have gotten? Do you think you would have gotten a better deal?


I would be willing to bet the farm on the fact that Colgan would have gotten more than a 50 cent per hour pay raise. There is absolutely no reason why an XJ FO should be paid more than a 9L FO for flying the same equipment when that XJ FO would likely be on furlough had Pinnacle Corp not purchased them.
 
My guess is Colgan is your first airline job.
Soft money is big if you know how to work the system. I avg $500-$600 a month in soft money and you are going to have better work rules then I work under. In fact my best month ever was June of this year I had a little over $2,500 in soft time.

Please explain how you were able to get 2500 in soft money in one month
 
Soft money will never equate to 4-5 grand a year or more. No way, no how. More like 4-5 hundred a year. $1 an hour increase in compensation is much more valuable then soft money provisions.

When I was making 32 an hour, i checked one month to see how soft pay (4 hour min day, 1.5 open time) was benefitting me. Keep in mind that was a month with lots of deadheads. It was about 280 bones. I didn't pick up any open time that month. Soft pay is huge, never mind the day rooms during a long sit or a mx breakdown. YMMV

This month (making 37 an hour), a quick check of the schedule, as it stands now I make an extra $330 before taxes on soft money. Some month it really makes difference some months just a little difference. I don't play the system a lot but it's safe to say I'm making an extra 4 grand this year off of soft money. YMMV

Edit: in advance I understand we have a lot of weathly regional pilots on any forum who don't care about an extra grand or two. For us little people, it makes a difference when you're trying to play bills.

I'm not posting, just reposting. I'm staying out of it... kinda
 
As far as the XJ Q rates not being valid b/c we don't have any yet... I find that ridiculous. We had pay-rates negotiated in our contract for that possibility. Thus, now that we will have Qs once XJ and 9L are merged, we have taken a paycut, up to 10% or so. Flying 74 pax in a turboprop apparently isn't as elite as flying 50 in a jet.

For health care, I'd be saving $40 a month. 401k, status quo. Deadheading, 25% additional... but the vast majority of days that I DH I'm only making min day as it is, so no real benefit there. JM pay, I think the 150% for extensions and 200% for off days should be swapped. Still waiting on an answer about grandfathered pay rates and involuntary displacements. No annual increases after the duration of the contract... I would be better off sticking with my current contract as far as hourly pay goes, if you want to talk about looking down the road.

Solidarity??? "1 Contract, 1 List, 1 Voice"??? Except when it comes to prop trash. Then it's ""1 Contract, 1 List, 1 Voice... 2 payscales, depending on what company you're from and what position you currently hold." All animals are equal. But some animals are more equal than others.

XJ SF3 and CR2 CAs get no pay raise, average XJ CR9 CA raise is 0.1%. The only people at XJ that make out pay wise are jet FOs, and I'm glad we got rid of the blended rate, but the majority of the jet FOs are also the least senior. Saab FOs are already livid about the fact that they're getting min days off and only making guarantee, while much more junior jet guys are holding more days off and blocking 85-95 hours a month (there's been no way to voluntarily move over for a couple of years). Just wait until those junior guys are making 8.5% more on average. We are going to have quite a few disgruntled workers. That's all assuming there won't be a system flush, which I'm guessing is not going to happen.
 
Please explain how you were able to get 2500 in soft money in one month

Stuff like min day...

Have you ever had a trip with a day with 1 leg on it? Well.. Instead of getting paid your hourly rate x length of flight you'll get 4 hours worth of pay...

So.. Lets say you make $25... Instead of making $25 to go from MEM to HSV and then the hotel, you get $100...
 
Please explain how you were able to get 2500 in soft money in one month

Work rules.

Here is one example I got JMed into a MIA-IND(They DH me from my home airport to MIA and back and paid me to sit in first class) turn that paid almost 20 hours for a day trip because of work rules, and because of the JM they had to drop an OT trip that I still got paid for.
 
I'm running out of popcorn. Hold on guys, I'll be right back. This is a pretty action packed thread!

Few more pages and I can see threats of bodily harm and sabotage.

And to think that SLI hasn't even started yet! :D



Have you ever had a trip with a day with 1 leg on it?

Tonight :) IND overnight off of RRP. Credit under current agreement... 2+16. With 4-hour min day that easily becomes 8 hours of credit.
 
Health insurance, particularly in the MEM base, for 9E guys was a HUGE thing. It was a strike worthy item. That should tell you how much the "typical regional pilot" uses his health insurance. I use mine every damn month because my wife is on meds. Sure was nice to have it when my kid broke his leg....then his arm later on in the year. If I get sick, I go to the doctor and I don't pay full cost. Health insurance isn't something you PLAN on using. It's something you're glad you have when you need it. If the "typical regional pilot" thinks it's not really all that, then we're all short sighted and deserve to be broke when we get in a car accident and can't pay the hospital bill.

Now, that being said, I knew our health care at 9E was gonna go up. How could it not? We've been living on the health care gravy train for a decade. I like that they added an employee + 1 category. I'm not too keen on how much the premiums went up, and I REALLY don't like the $50 co-pay for name brand (lots of stuff doesn't HAVE a generic brand). However, when all is said and done, even with the health care increase, I'm still looking at an extra $500/month take home based off 75 hour guarantee. That's WITHOUT soft money like the 4 hour min day. If they keep utilizing reserves the way they are now, I'd break guarantee every month just off the min day. However, there are provisions that limit open time. Reserves at 9E cover a LOT of open time rather than sick calls, out of position crews, missed commutes, etc. That's gonna force more hard lines and keep the reserves doing what they are SUPPOSED to do.

I don't really have much of a dog in the Saab pay rate fight, but it's worth noting again that once those XJ guys bid out of (or are DISPLACED out of) their current seats, they lose their grandfathered rate. How many of those MSP guys do you think will stay on the Saab when Delta phases it out of their base? Think they'll bid LGA or BOS just to keep the pay rate? Doubtful. The Saab FOs that are being grandfathered in will likely bid to the jet or upgrade when they can as well. I'd bet that within 2-3 years at the MOST, those grandfathered rates won't even be a factor since no one would be getting them. That's just how I see it, though. If it's that much of a deal breaker, I'd suggest talking to your reps about it. If you're still not satisfied, that's why you get a "no" vote.

Reserve rules are a LOT better. One thing that's huge for over here is that you can't go over 14 hours of duty INCLUDING reserve duty. Scheduling's favorite mantra right now is "Reserve isn't duty." Well, this changes that. Long call reserve is nice, but my future base (JFK) won't have it since they don't have enough reserves to trigger it (for now).

JMs and extensions are specifically defined.....and they're defined as a "rescheduling" rather than just "additional flying," so it makes it harder for DW to creatively interpret the contract in a way to get around it. 1-3 hours past your original release = extension. 3+ = junior man. No one else has mentioned it, but ALL RESERVES IN ALL BASES in that seat have to be used in order for them to JM someone. Now, the question is how transparent is that gonna be. I know it says that they have to maintain a log that the grievance chair has access to, but I'd like something a little more "real time." Otherwise, we fall into the "fly it now, grieve it later" trap where they just pay out to get the flying covered. We'll see, though. Some of the 9E guys are NOT gonna like going from 1 extension refusal a month to 3 in a year, but the restrictions make it a lot harder for them to extend you. Most of the time, any out and backs they add on to you are gonna take you past 3 hours anyway, turning it into a JM. Re-assignment is handled in a different way, but I like it.

It's pretty clear what happens to a ready reserve after they complete an assignment, but I'm gonna have to ask on the road shows what happens to a short call guy. It's a little vague on that. Right now, we can be released into 10 hours of rest, assigned more flying, held at the airport for an hour or released until our next contact period. It doesn't really say if we have to finish up our existing short call reserve period or not under the new rules. I DOES say you would have to do that on ready reserve, though.

All in all, I think it's a good deal. There's a good bit of give and take, but I think we got a LOT more than we gave. As for not being better than XJT, I'm fine with that. I'd rather have a contract that's fair, gives the pilots a good amount of what they want and doesn't put us in a position where bargaining is gonna be going backwards. XJT's deal is good, but I don't envy their NC when it comes amendable. We didn't get Comair's contract, either, but you curiously don't see anyone mention that.
 
I want to know how going from mesaba's 70+ prop rate = 50 jet rate to 70+ prop = less than 50 jet rate is not going backwards? Is it just because they didn't have the planes yet even though they had it in their contract?

Why is it ok for the Q and RJ2 to be equal in 5 years but not now?

These are huge glaring issues that are going to effect every single pilot on the list. The saab deal is also a step backwards but that is a secondary issue to me compared to the Q issues.
 
I want to know how going from mesaba's 70+ prop rate = 50 jet rate to 70+ prop = less than 50 jet rate is not going backwards? Is it just because they didn't have the planes yet even though they had it in their contract?

You can't have a pay rate on aircraft you don't operate..

Something you're going to have to accept, jets will almost always make more than turboprops.. I don't agree with it, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles..
 
Tonight :) IND overnight off of RRP. Credit under current agreement... 2+16. With 4-hour min day that easily becomes 8 hours of credit.

Even better is when they DH you at the end of your RR period so you can ferry a plane back in the morning. Two days, total credit: about 2:30 under current agreement. I think I actually have more days where I only have one or two legs a day than I have multi-leg days. Then again, my two leg day yesterday was a disaster from the pit of hell that ran up to 6:30 of block.....for TWO LEGS.
 
You can't have a pay rate on aircraft you don't operate..

Something you're going to have to accept, jets will almost always make more than turboprops.. I don't agree with it, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles..

Eh, you should see our payrates on the Airbus for next year.

Dammit, I let that one slip quick. Sorry guys.
 
I want to know how going from mesaba's 70+ prop rate = 50 jet rate to 70+ prop = less than 50 jet rate is not going backwards? Is it just because they didn't have the planes yet even though they had it in their contract?

I'm not sure Mesaba HAS a 70+ seat PROP rate. Their FOs currently get the same no matter what equipment they fly, so that may skew things a bit. Saab CAs at XJ don't make the same as -200 or -900 CAs, though. So, I don't see any kind of 70+ seat prop rate = 50+ seat jet rate.

Tram, you CAN have a payrate on an aircraft you don't operate. Ask Republic. That's why their 190s have 1 less seat. They had the foresight to negotiate 99 seat payrates.....but not 100 seat rates.
 
Health insurance, particularly in the MEM base, for 9E guys was a HUGE thing. It was a strike worthy item. That should tell you how much the "typical regional pilot" uses his health insurance. I use mine every damn month because my wife is on meds. Sure was nice to have it when my kid broke his leg....then his arm later on in the year. If I get sick, I go to the doctor and I don't pay full cost. Health insurance isn't something you PLAN on using. It's something you're glad you have when you need it. If the "typical regional pilot" thinks it's not really all that, then we're all short sighted and deserve to be broke when we get in a car accident and can't pay the hospital bill.

I don't have health insurance through 9E, but have it through my wife's employer, but the similarity of the two plans is close enough to make this work.

I was out nearly 3 weeks during early November with a knee injury. If I did not have any insurance, I would have been out at least $4000, or at least 2 months at 75 hours on reserve and forgeting my other monthly obligations. There is no way I would have been able to fork out that kind of money.


Some of the 9E guys are NOT gonna like going from 1 extension refusal a month to 3 in a year, but the restrictions make it a lot harder for them to extend you.

I originally didn't like the idea of only 3 extension refusals a year and only 3 JM refusals a year (one per month each), but as I read further I saw how restrictive the rules are governing when the company can junior assign and extend pilots and I felt much better.

To put it mildly... 9E pilots are going to need a complete rewiring on the way we view JMs and extensions.
 
Tram, you CAN have a payrate on an aircraft you don't operate. Ask Republic. That's why their 190s have 1 less seat. They had the foresight to negotiate 99 seat payrates.....but not 100 seat rates.

So they don't operate 100 seat aircraft, do they? ;)

Mesaba has never to my knowledge had 70 seat turboprops.. Perhaps, for the sticklers out there (this means you) I should have said.. You can't have a payrate for aircraft that are not on the property..

I'm lookin' forward to 777 pay here at 9E.. Gonna be awesome!
 
So they don't operate 100 seat aircraft, do they? ;)

Mesaba has never to my knowledge had 70 seat turboprops.. Perhaps, for the sticklers out there (this means you) I should have said.. You can't have a payrate for aircraft that are not on the property..

Yeah, but they didn't have a 99 seat airplane on property when they negotiated the rate, either. :)
 
I originally didn't like the idea of only 3 extension refusals a year and only 3 JM refusals a year (one per month each), but as I read further I saw how restrictive the rules are governing when the company can junior assign and extend pilots and I felt much better.

To put it mildly... 9E pilots are going to need a complete rewiring on the way we view JMs and extensions.

Agree, and I think THAT'S gonna be a huge undertaking, especially for guys that are convinced they KNOW what's going on. Us P2P guys are gonna have our hands full....
 
I'm not sure Mesaba HAS a 70+ seat PROP rate. Their FOs currently get the same no matter what equipment they fly, so that may skew things a bit. Saab CAs at XJ don't make the same as -200 or -900 CAs, though. So, I don't see any kind of 70+ seat prop rate = 50+ seat jet rate.

Tram, you CAN have a payrate on an aircraft you don't operate. Ask Republic. That's why their 190s have 1 less seat. They had the foresight to negotiate 99 seat payrates.....but not 100 seat rates.

Actually, that is exactly what we currently have. (for CA only, obviously)

40-59 pax jet, and 56-74 pax turboprop are in the same columns of LOA 23 (bankruptcy deal)
 
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