kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Ah, got it. Only thing I had access to was APC, and they don't break it down by number of seats.
9L, 9E, XJ JCBA executive summary
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Ah, got it. Only thing I had access to was APC, and they don't break it down by number of seats.
sopdan
Well-Known Member
So they don't operate 100 seat aircraft, do they?
Mesaba has never to my knowledge had 70 seat turboprops.. Perhaps, for the sticklers out there (this means you) I should have said.. You can't have a payrate for aircraft that are not on the property..
I'm lookin' forward to 777 pay here at 9E.. Gonna be awesome!
So let me get this straight...
In your mind, since XJ didn't have Q400s when we ratified a legally binding contract with Q400 rates, we will need to renegotiate those rates should we eventually get them on property??? And the previously agreed to rates are null and void??? (assuming the current situation never occurred)
Did 9E negotiate the 900 rates before, or after pilots were flying them on the property? (I truly don't know the answer)
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
After via arbitration. Back when our current agreement was negotiated, 76 seat RJs were laughable paper tigers that would surely be flown by mainline pilots. Our current 99 agreement basically had a loophole that the company could begin utilizing a new type without having pay rates. A loophole that's been closed in the TA it would seem. According to the summary, they have to negotiate a pay rate, work rules, etc before it starts service. If it goes into arbitration, the arbitrator's ruling has to be complete (and it's limited to certain aspects) prior to the aircraft entering service. So, we'll have to get that pay rate and work rules done before we start flying those Airbus and 777s.
Tram
Well-Known Member
If you guys ratified a contract with Q400 rates, I guess you have Q400 rates.. I was thinking "Mesaba prior to Colgan becoming Mesaba." Not the current JCBA.. So.. I guess I misspoke..
We got the rates after the planes showed up..
sopdan
Well-Known Member
So, we'll have to get that pay rate and work rules done before we start flying those Airbus and 777s.
Just like the Qs at XJ.
(I think we're on the same page with this issue)
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Just read the summary. You guys should all be very happy. Great job by the JNC and the leaderships at all three MECs. You should be proud of the work you've done and what you've accomplished. This is a great TA.
Now, a few comments:
1. Someone asked a question about how an AirTran pilot would feel if we were paid a different wage after merging into SWA than the SWA pilots. Sorry, but that analogy doesn't hold up, because it can't happen to us. You see, unlike a Colgan pilot, I have a collective bargaining agreement. And my CBA says that Southwest management has no choice but to merge the two airlines within 18 months after acquiring us. When that happens, we automatically come under the SWA contract. So, we have no requirement to negotiate a JCBA. At CJC, on the other hand, you have no contract, and there is nothing to prohibit Pinnacle management from operating you as a separate subsidiary for the foreseeable future. They can slow down negotiations on your own contract, and you can sit without one for years to come. So, management has leverage to get you to accept something less than MSA parity, because if you don't, they don't have to merge you, and you won't get anything at all. As Seggy said, the rates are better than what you could have negotiated on your own, so accepting them now is better than rejecting them and risking separate operations.
2. Some of you have talked about how it "feels" to have a separate pay scale. This isn't an emotional decision for you to make, this is a business decision. From a financial and QOL perspective, is it a smarter move to take this deal, or stand your ground on the issue of separate Saab scales? Forget the emotions. Think about dollars, days off, health care, and retirement. That's what a contract is about. It's not about your feelings.
3. This isn't a "b-scale," as some people have said. Apparently you guys haven't read Flying the Line, because a b-scale clearly divides people based on hire dates. Those people hired before the contract was signed get one set of pay rates, and those hired after get a much lower set of pay rates. It creates a permanent set of second class citizens within a pilot group. It is, in short, a nightmare. But that's not what you have here. You have a temporary situation that will affect few pilots and disappear with the next contract. In fact, it will virtually disappear under this contract as pilots bid system vacancies and move around, eliminating the people who were grandfathered. This is far from a b-scale.
4. Anyone who thinks that you're going to get the same rate on the Q400 on DOS as the CRJ gets is living in a dream world. Frankly, I'm amazed that the rates match up by the end of the agreement. I haven't asked Seggy, but I would be shocked if this wasn't a religious issue that management took a long time to get over at the table. Jets pay more than props. That's just a fact of life in the airline business. Your TA actually changes that by the end of the agreement. That's quite an achievement from the perspective of a negotiator. It changes the playing field for the next bargaining cycle.
Congrats to all of you. You got a great TA that you can be proud of. Now for the fun part: the SLI.
Now, a few comments:
1. Someone asked a question about how an AirTran pilot would feel if we were paid a different wage after merging into SWA than the SWA pilots. Sorry, but that analogy doesn't hold up, because it can't happen to us. You see, unlike a Colgan pilot, I have a collective bargaining agreement. And my CBA says that Southwest management has no choice but to merge the two airlines within 18 months after acquiring us. When that happens, we automatically come under the SWA contract. So, we have no requirement to negotiate a JCBA. At CJC, on the other hand, you have no contract, and there is nothing to prohibit Pinnacle management from operating you as a separate subsidiary for the foreseeable future. They can slow down negotiations on your own contract, and you can sit without one for years to come. So, management has leverage to get you to accept something less than MSA parity, because if you don't, they don't have to merge you, and you won't get anything at all. As Seggy said, the rates are better than what you could have negotiated on your own, so accepting them now is better than rejecting them and risking separate operations.
2. Some of you have talked about how it "feels" to have a separate pay scale. This isn't an emotional decision for you to make, this is a business decision. From a financial and QOL perspective, is it a smarter move to take this deal, or stand your ground on the issue of separate Saab scales? Forget the emotions. Think about dollars, days off, health care, and retirement. That's what a contract is about. It's not about your feelings.
3. This isn't a "b-scale," as some people have said. Apparently you guys haven't read Flying the Line, because a b-scale clearly divides people based on hire dates. Those people hired before the contract was signed get one set of pay rates, and those hired after get a much lower set of pay rates. It creates a permanent set of second class citizens within a pilot group. It is, in short, a nightmare. But that's not what you have here. You have a temporary situation that will affect few pilots and disappear with the next contract. In fact, it will virtually disappear under this contract as pilots bid system vacancies and move around, eliminating the people who were grandfathered. This is far from a b-scale.
4. Anyone who thinks that you're going to get the same rate on the Q400 on DOS as the CRJ gets is living in a dream world. Frankly, I'm amazed that the rates match up by the end of the agreement. I haven't asked Seggy, but I would be shocked if this wasn't a religious issue that management took a long time to get over at the table. Jets pay more than props. That's just a fact of life in the airline business. Your TA actually changes that by the end of the agreement. That's quite an achievement from the perspective of a negotiator. It changes the playing field for the next bargaining cycle.
Congrats to all of you. You got a great TA that you can be proud of. Now for the fun part: the SLI.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Congrats to all of you. You got a great TA that you can be proud of. Now for the fun part: the SLI.
You have a sick definition of the word "fun."
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
sopdan
Well-Known Member
Dollars: I get nothing extra. Days off: I get nothing extra. Health care: less than $500 a year. Retirement: I get nothing extra.
Wow, such a great improvement in QoL!!! Emotions have nothing to do with it. Looking in the long term, I'm personally worse off with the JCBA in my current position.
You're exactly right. I haven't read it. I understand that most ALPA groups supply the books to newhires. The MSA MEC does no such thing. Apparently it's not in the budget, so who's fault is it?
The next contract? Oh, you mean the one that will start being negotiated five years from now. When all pay rates will be frozen. I'm sure management will be eager to give some more pay raises as soon as feasibly possible. So we're talking, what, about 2025?
Yes, always better to assimilate people to lower pay for the same work.
What happened to 9L's (reasonable) expectation of "current XJ+?" It turns out that it's "current XJ-"
Maybe if you're from 9E or 9L (weren't you from 9E?)... for XJ pilots it was/is a reality, until this TA inevitably gets passed.
That's what's been accepted, you mean. (I believe)Frankly, I'm amazed that the rates match up by the end of the agreement. I haven't asked Seggy, but I would be shocked if this wasn't a religious issue that management took a long time to get over at the table. Jets pay more than props. That's just a fact of life in the airline business. Your TA actually changes that by the end of the agreement. That's quite an achievement from the perspective of a negotiator. It changes the playing field for the next bargaining cycle.
Congrats to all of you. You got a great TA that you can be proud of. Now for the fun part: the SLI.
Just like every regional pilot eats boogers for lunch (and maybe dinner, depending on airframe.) Meanwhile, the mainline dudes punch disaster square in the nose on a regular basis, and deliver babies in the cabin while deadheading. Screw the prop guys, their flying is so easy compared to the guys slaving away in the jets.
Forgive me for not being as "rah-rah-rah" about this TA as you are. But do realize that I'm affected by it, and you're not.
CAPIP1998
Well-Known Member
I know this is a few pages ago, but I can't help calling you out on this one. The 50 seat rates are nearly IDENTICAL at DOS and we will pass the XJT rates December 2011. We only go up from there. You guys at XJT and ASA should be very happy that we HAVE set the bar higher as it will help you in your negotiations.
In sincerely hope you XJT/ASA guys pass us in your deal.
CAPIP1998
Well-Known Member
Thank you ATN for inserting some "actual reason" into this discussion.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Your lack of understand and experience in this area is given away by your naivety on this issue.
Soft time is huge, HUGE. I blocked 65 hours and credited over 100 one month with all of our soft time provisions. At $34 an hour, that's over $1,100 in one MONTH.
Get educated on this issue.
I just ran up some numbers in Excel. I am assuming remaining as a Saab FO for the period of the TA.
As a mid-2010 hire at 9L, through 2016, at 75 hours a month, with the TA rates for 9L:
I have an increase in pay of $27,735.
With grandfathered XJ rates, it would be $29,053 more than the TA rates for 9L.
As a mid-2010 hire at 9L, through 2016, at 75 hours a month, with the TA rates for 9L:
I have an increase in pay of $27,735.
With grandfathered XJ rates, it would be $29,053 more than the TA rates for 9L.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
You realize we traded away a lot of the scope on the XJ side (you getting "your" rates) to get this whole JCBA right? I understand you lost out on Mesaba's rates a little bit, but they weren't yours. We put together 3 companies under one banner instead, with no whipsaw. Something that goes way beyond that 29k you think you're missing out on. Perhaps you were excited about that whipsaw thing, I don't know, but trust me that's the thief in the night.
Also, why all the concern with the money? Going to work for Colgan, and then throwing a fit about your pay rates is a bit disingenuous. You are acting like the JCBA took money away from you.
Go back in time 4 years, ask Chuckles Colgan not to sell Colgan to Pinnacle, keep Colgan separate, work really hard for 4 years and give all your (and everyone elses) pay to the company, buy those Q's, raise enough money to be in a good financial position to pick up Mesaba from Delta (no money down no interest), then you'd have an excuse to be upset we didn't force our scope onto you. If there was no crash in Buffalo a few years back, there'd be no reason to trash the "Colgan" name, but you'd still have to in order to fulfill our scope requirement to have Mesaba as the surviving carrier.
It's not just you, a lot of people need to take off the blinders. You've been tossed into a very complex situation.
Seriously? Good luck with that argument. Colgan is a step up from where I came from.
There will be other guys flying the same equipment at OUR mutual company with the same years of service and making more doing it.
I guess I should just be happy with being a second-string Colgan pilot and taking what I get.
Why don't you just step back and see what he is saying. Jesus christ. Forget it Joe, they don't get it. I'd suggest you read Section 1, SCOPE.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I know they don't get it, I just don't know how to get them to understand. It seems like this stuff has been beat to death and they purposefully ignore any reason or rationale. I guess it doesn't help that I push their buttons a little more than I should, but as long as I'm talking to a brick wall I should be able to lean up against it from time to time.
I feel like we've given our reasons and reasoning, short of talking to an ALPA rep who has been in on the calls I don't know what else we can do for them. Colgan was non-union until very recently, no contract, and a whipsaw machine. I don't know why Pinnacle didn't step in and do the things we've done now, like the JCBA, but I assume it's from having no leverage. Mesaba used it's contract language, and we have eliminated whipsaw. Whipsaw is the rapist with AIDS sneaking in through your daughters window.
Personally I don't care what Matt's reasons were for going to Colgan, he felt it was a pay raise then fine. Then that's the good, now you've got to take the bad with the good. I really don't know where else to go with this that we haven't gone before in previous pages.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I think you've lost the forest for the trees. Truthfully I think you're continuing to stay lost on purpose.
Hold your breath and pout, see what that does for you.