9L, 9E, XJ JCBA executive summary

[kellwolf]

50 seat RJ pays more than the Q. Where is the growth? Yeah, exactly.

This makes no sense. If Delta announced they were growing the Airbus, should it pay significantly better than the 737? The argument of "the Q should have a higher pay rate because that's where the growth is" makes almost as much sense as "we should fair better in the SLI because we were the acquiring company." You also have to look at the WHOLE contract, not just DOS. By the time the contract is amendable, the Q and the -200 pay the same. Like ATN said, this is HUGE for the next round of negotiations since it's one of the rare times turboprop pay is on par with a jet. Then you build on that in the next cycle. Do I think it should be based on seats? Yes, but I also live in reality. By year 3, the Q pay isn't as much as -200 pay, but it's up there with Horizon pay. Year 4, it surpasses Horizon pay on the same equipment. A year ago, if someone said Colgan would eventually get a higher pay the Horizon, most pilots would have thought that was a dream. Now, it's apparently not enough.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I am going to have to take you up on that BBQ one of these days, Joe. Do you do a good brisket? Or are you a ribs and chicken guy?

Sorry on the brisket man, this is MEM. They only do Pork here. Meet you in KC or Tehas?

Edit: If your in the area PM we'll get you over and get you some southern cooking.

 

[jynxyjoe]

This makes no sense. If Delta announced they were growing the Airbus, should it pay significantly better than the 737? The argument of "the Q should have a higher pay rate because that's where the growth is" makes almost as much sense as "we should fair better in the SLI because we were the acquiring company." You also have to look at the WHOLE contract, not just DOS. By the time the contract is amendable, the Q and the -200 pay the same. Like ATN said, this is HUGE for the next round of negotiations since it's one of the rare times turboprop pay is on par with a jet. Then you build on that in the next cycle. Do I think it should be based on seats? Yes, but I also live in reality. By year 3, the Q pay isn't as much as -200 pay, but it's up there with Horizon pay. Year 4, it surpasses Horizon pay on the same equipment. A year ago, if someone said Colgan would eventually get a higher pay the Horizon, most pilots would have thought that was a dream. Now, it's apparently not enough.

God dammit Kell! NO MORE FACTS! This is strictly about emotion, no brains.

I guess no one got the memo, leave your brains at the door for this thread. You have been warned. Next step I'm moaning even louder.

 

[Seggy]

By year 3, the Q pay isn't as much as -200 pay, but it's up there with Horizon pay. Year 4, it surpasses Horizon pay on the same equipment. A year ago, if someone said Colgan would eventually get a higher pay the Horizon, most pilots would have thought that was a dream.

I am going to RESTATE this again.......

 

[Tram]

I am going to RESTATE this again.......

But... But... But the Q is the Q mayne!! We can't make the same/more than other Q operators if those pesky CRJ guys make more!!!

 

[Hevyhed]

Wow! If I made some of these childish comments I would probably be warned by a moderator.

 

[Hevyhed]

It just seems like it would have made more sense to take no pay increase on Saab, small increase on -200, and more on the Q, since that is where the growth is. I would imagine that most of the 9E and XJ FO's will be upgrading to the Q. BTW, I'm on the SAAB.

 

[jg1585]

this thread make me sick. so why are XJ pilots getting paid more to fly the saab (A/B scale)? Why is the q400 pay less than 50 seat pay? why do the usair saab guys miss out on the 4hrmin day? If this passes the cjc mec than I will lose ALL respect for you guys. MG.. Why the hell are you defending this contract??? How can you walk next to another colgan pilot and hold your head high? What happened to unity and ONE contract ONE list ONE VOICE.... BUT 2 payscales?! wtf.. Just based on the fact that one alpa pilot working for the SAME company is making more money on the SAME equipment is wrong wrong wrong. I don't care what anybody says, you will not change my mind on this. I am voting a big HELL NO! All you guys on here saying how this contact is so good (which it is in some areas) really make me mad. Send this TA back to mgmt and grow some you know what. rant over... merry xmas kids.. bah humbug

 

[kellwolf]

It just seems like it would have made more sense to take no pay increase on Saab, small increase on -200, and more on the Q, since that is where the growth is. I would imagine that most of the 9E and XJ FO's will be upgrading to the Q. BTW, I'm on the SAAB.

:banghead:

How many Qs? How many -200s? Still think MOST of the 9E and XJ FOs are gonna upgrade on the Q? How many Qs do you think you'd need to grow just to equal the amount of -200s there are?

 

[Hevyhed]

This makes no sense. If Delta announced they were growing the Airbus, should it pay significantly better than the 737? The argument of "the Q should have a higher pay rate because that's where the growth is" makes almost as much sense as "we should fair better in the SLI because we were the acquiring company." You also have to look at the WHOLE contract, not just DOS. By the time the contract is amendable, the Q and the -200 pay the same. Like ATN said, this is HUGE for the next round of negotiations since it's one of the rare times turboprop pay is on par with a jet. Then you build on that in the next cycle. Do I think it should be based on seats? Yes, but I also live in reality. By year 3, the Q pay isn't as much as -200 pay, but it's up there with Horizon pay. Year 4, it surpasses Horizon pay on the same equipment. A year ago, if someone said Colgan would eventually get a higher pay the Horizon, most pilots would have thought that was a dream. Now, it's apparently not enough.

This is all true, I think. Its not a reflection upon the JNC, more of a sign of how strange this business is. Yeah, I know, this is the way it has always been. It doesn't mean that it makes sense or can't be changed. I was more hopeful, that's all. I never said it was not enough. I will probably vote yes.

 

[kellwolf]

this thread make me sick. so why are XJ pilots getting paid more to fly the saab (A/B scale)? Why is the q400 pay less than 50 seat pay? why do the usair saab guys miss out on the 4hrmin day? If this passes the cjc mec than I will lose ALL respect for you guys. MG.. Why the hell are you defending this contract??? How can you walk next to another colgan pilot and hold your head high? What happened to unity and ONE contract ONE list ONE VOICE.... BUT 2 payscales?! wtf.. Just based on the fact that one alpa pilot working for the SAME company is making more money on the SAME equipment is wrong wrong wrong. I don't care what anybody says, you will not change my mind on this. I am voting a big HELL NO! All you guys on here saying how this contact is so good (which it is in some areas) really make me mad. Send this TA back to mgmt and grow some you know what. rant over... merry xmas kids.. bah humbug

Why don't guys read the TA for what it will be when it's complete and not just on day one? The Q is NOT getting paid less than the -200. By the maturity date of the contract, they pay the same, setting it up for the Q to be paid MORE in the next negotiating cycle. Everyone says they want to make the airline better for the next group that comes through.....right up until they have to give a little themselves. What would you want? The Q to pay the same as the -900? While I agree that might be fair, good luck getting ANY airline management to agree to that without serious concessions in other areas. Odds are good that out station basing will be gone for the Saab, which would mean that the 4 hour min day WOULD apply. The B-scale everyone talks about isn't a B-scale. If it said "XJ Saab guys get this for the 5 years" and "Colgan Saab guys get this for 5 years" then it would be a B scale. As it is, those pay rates likely won't apply to anyone in the next couple of years. Why? Those airplanes are going away in MSP, DTW and MEM.

Sure, send it back to management. I can tell you right now 9E wouldn't have gotten anything this level on our own, and we've been plugging away for 6 years with management. It's perfectly within your right to vote "no," but I wish guys would actually think it through and read the contract as a whole instead of turning to the compensation section, getting outraged and going on an internet rampage.

 

[Cruise]

I am really sad to hear you say that. I would have expected more from you.

Disregard what I said previously. I do know who you are and I don't think you've earned the right to talk to me like that!

 

[Hevyhed]

this thread make me sick. so why are XJ pilots getting paid more to fly the saab (A/B scale)? Why is the q400 pay less than 50 seat pay? why do the usair saab guys miss out on the 4hrmin day? If this passes the cjc mec than I will lose ALL respect for you guys. MG.. Why the hell are you defending this contract??? How can you walk next to another colgan pilot and hold your head high? What happened to unity and ONE contract ONE list ONE VOICE.... BUT 2 payscales?! wtf.. Just based on the fact that one alpa pilot working for the SAME company is making more money on the SAME equipment is wrong wrong wrong. I don't care what anybody says, you will not change my mind on this. I am voting a big HELL NO! All you guys on here saying how this contact is so good (which it is in some areas) really make me mad. Send this TA back to mgmt and grow some you know what. rant over... merry xmas kids.. bah humbug

Well said. You know what? You may have just changed my mind.

 

[Cruise]

this thread make me sick. so why are XJ pilots getting paid more to fly the saab (A/B scale)? Why is the q400 pay less than 50 seat pay? why do the usair saab guys miss out on the 4hrmin day? If this passes the cjc mec than I will lose ALL respect for you guys. MG.. Why the hell are you defending this contract??? How can you walk next to another colgan pilot and hold your head high? What happened to unity and ONE contract ONE list ONE VOICE.... BUT 2 payscales?! wtf.. Just based on the fact that one alpa pilot working for the SAME company is making more money on the SAME equipment is wrong wrong wrong. I don't care what anybody says, you will not change my mind on this. I am voting a big HELL NO! All you guys on here saying how this contact is so good (which it is in some areas) really make me mad. Send this TA back to mgmt and grow some you know what. rant over... merry xmas kids.. bah humbug

Please attempt to keep the internet "tough guy" syndrome from clouding your judgement/ opinions. After you've attended the roadshow and have listened to the details with an open mind you have the right to vote "NO" if you still think that's in your best interest. Until then, your loss of respect for the MEC is not warranted. In fact, this MEC has provided countless benefits to our pilot group. For you to make a statement like you'll lose respect for us doesn't do you or our pilot group any good. Why don't you send me a PM or give me a call to talk about it; otherwise, I'll figure you choose to remain uninformed and just want to thump your chest on the interwebz with an uninformed opinion.......

 

[WalterSobchak]

I want to know how going from mesaba's 70+ prop rate = 50 jet rate to 70+ prop = less than 50 jet rate is not going backwards? Is it just because they didn't have the planes yet even though they had it in their contract?

I already told you that, n1982, told you that and you answered your own question. Mesaba doesn't have the airframes thats why they have you raise the colgan pay scale.

Why is it ok for the Q and RJ2 to be equal in 5 years but not now?

The contract has a total value. If you look at the Colgan/new mesaba saab rates they diverge from the current xj rates more the longer you stay. This money will be shifted to the Q because that is where the "lifers" will be and it will be the more senior aircraft.

These are huge glaring issues that are going to effect every single pilot on the list. The saab deal is also a step backwards but that is a secondary issue to me compared to the Q issues.

These are completely minor issues. With out XJ an arbitrator ruled 9e and 9l are seperate. XJ is the rug. It ties the room together from an arbitrators stand point. If 9L negotiated a contract with out the benefit of 3 pilot groups pooling their resources maybe you would get the greatest contract in the history of mankind. However how long do you think it would take you to get it? 9E is going on 6+ years. Do you think you would be at 9L 6 years from now? The reason Colgan/Pinnacle weren't going to get prompt contracts that were awsome was because the company had 0 incentivce to give anything. The only reason we are getting this offer is because the company needs it done. If we waste this chance maybe the company will find a different way that is worse for every one. I feel it is a fair offer for all parties PNCL, 9E, 9L, and XJ. The bottom line is you quality of life going to improve now(2 months) or are you willing to go status quo for an indetermined amount of time and possible cost yourself many thousand more than worrying about 60 cents?

What do you think is a fair pay rate for your seat?

 

[WalterSobchak]

Why don't guys read the TA for what it will be when it's complete and not just on day one? The Q is NOT getting paid less than the -200. By the maturity date of the contract, they pay the same, setting it up for the Q to be paid MORE in the next negotiating cycle. Everyone says they want to make the airline better for the next group that comes through.....right up until they have to give a little themselves. What would you want? The Q to pay the same as the -900? While I agree that might be fair, good luck getting ANY airline management to agree to that without serious concessions in other areas. Odds are good that out station basing will be gone for the Saab, which would mean that the 4 hour min day WOULD apply. The B-scale everyone talks about isn't a B-scale. If it said "XJ Saab guys get this for the 5 years" and "Colgan Saab guys get this for 5 years" then it would be a B scale. As it is, those pay rates likely won't apply to anyone in the next couple of years. Why? Those airplanes are going away in MSP, DTW and MEM.

Sure, send it back to management. I can tell you right now 9E wouldn't have gotten anything this level on our own, and we've been plugging away for 6 years with management. It's perfectly within your right to vote "no," but I wish guys would actually think it through and read the contract as a whole instead of turning to the compensation section, getting outraged and going on an internet rampage.

I really should highlight your whole post because I agree with all of it.

 

[Hevyhed]

Please attempt to keep the internet "tough guy" syndrome from clouding your judgement/ opinions. After you've attended the roadshow and have listened to the details with an open mind you have the right to vote "NO" if you still think that's in your best interest. Until then, your loss of respect for the MEC is not warranted. In fact, this MEC has provided countless benefits to our pilot group. For you to make a statement like you'll lose respect for us doesn't do you or our pilot group any good. Why don't you send me a PM or give me a call to talk about it; otherwise, I'll figure you choose to remain uninformed and just want to thump your chest on the interwebz with an uninformed opinion.......

It may be in the best interest of everyone to vote yes. You have to admit though, for us Colgan guys, it is a bit hard to stomach. I think the majority of Colgan pilots will vote yes, but we might throw up a little bit when doing so. I think a little more respect and consideration for this fact would go a long way.

 

[Snuggle]

I still want to learn more about it at the roadshows, but for now I don't see myself throwing up while casting my vote. I'm actually quite impressed by this contract.

 

[SteveC]

Wow! If I made some of these childish comments I would probably be warned by a moderator.

Actually, you may not know if they have been. :dunno:

 

[Cruise]

It may be in the best interest of everyone to vote yes. You have to admit though, for us Colgan guys, it is a bit hard to stomach. I think the majority of Colgan pilots will vote yes, but we might throw up a little bit when doing so. I think a little more respect and consideration for this fact would go a long way.

Of course there are aspect of the TA that aren't the greatest. I don't think anyone is trying to sell this as OMGZ....this is the best thing EVAH.... However, it is a solid deal. One which ensures our future as a strong, 3,000+ pilot group....and certainly one that is better than we'll get going it alone. Are there some negatives? Yes, of course. However, the positives FAR outweigh the few negatives. Guys are getting all beside themselves without looking at this from a pragmatic perspective. Don't let emotions get in the way of logic. We all need to look at the bigger picture and the long term benefits of securing a solid contract now and working on improving the rest down the road. Let's get the road cut now....we'll work on paving it as we go.