jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Sure it will; by getting rid of the regionals when they can't staff their operations.
1500hr Rule - Do you think the industry will adjust? If so, how?
- Thread starter B.E. Lewis
- Start date
Sure it will; by getting rid of the regionals when they can't staff their operations.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
If Great Lakes has no problems getting people I don't think the rest with jets and large turboprops would have a problem.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
You're correct.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Joe Friday is spot on.
The number of basic aircraft handling errors has increased since the low time guys flooded the market. People who write the insurance checks are paying attention.
The 1,500 hour rule is one of the very few things the FAA has done right.
To avoid issues, you need three things, AT A MINIMUM:
1) Basic skill in handling the aircraft, including basic attitude awareness and performance
2) Basic skill in handing threats and errors, including how to know when airplanes get sideways and "the big picture"
3) Basic skill in handling people, including knowing when you need to pay more attention to the person you're flying with.
250 hours to devlop these skills in what is basically a non-supervise 121 operation is absolutely laughable. LAUGHABLE.
You don't develop these skills while flying with a CFI
You don't develop these skills while flying in the right seat of an automated jet
You don't develop these skills while flying in the right seat, letting the captain and the dispatcher make the calls
You don't develop these skills sitting in a simulator "flying" pre-scripted "scenarios". You have NO skin in that game.
People skoff at the idea that a CFI that spends "1,000 hours in the pattern" doesn't learn anything, but I submit that that is EXACTLY the kind of experiences that form the foundation.
As a CFI you:
Manually hand the aircraft all the time. Most of the aircraft are relatively low performace, which makes economy of action and performance essential.
You are observing a newbie constantly, making you VERY aware of what mistakes cause what problems, and, more importantly, what corrective actions are necessary, and HOW TO RAPIDLY IMPLEMENT THEM.
How to read people. No one is as uptight as a CFI signing off a guy for first solo. You know exactly every little twitch and quirk. You also learn how to resist telling someone how to do your job ("ahh, sign him off...he's a good guy").
You develop PIC skills as to how to make decisions as to when to fly, and are constantly looking for threats to your well being, as well as that of the student.
But, being a CFI isn't enough, so lets throw some 135 time in there as well, where you:
1) Learn to handle and monitor the aircraft, ALONE, because your life depends on it.
2) How to "THINK" about the weather, because there isn't a prayer of going over it.
3) Learn how to handle the pressure from chair bound idiots telling you to fly or that it's "good to go", including subtle, and not-so-subtle threats to your job. You learn how to say NO.
It just so happens that 1,500 hours (roughly 800 hours of dual given, plus 500 as PIC in 135) is the sweet spot for guys to START to know WTF they are doing, and more importantly, what they DON'T KNOW.
To think that a pilot who has been "handled" from baby bottle to throttle, with 300 hours, has any of these skills is ridiculous on its face. The system worked well for decades, but when companies started deviating from what worked for so long, then someone has to step in and fix it for them.
Here endeth the lesson. Now get off my lawn.
Richman
The number of basic aircraft handling errors has increased since the low time guys flooded the market. People who write the insurance checks are paying attention.
The 1,500 hour rule is one of the very few things the FAA has done right.
To avoid issues, you need three things, AT A MINIMUM:
1) Basic skill in handling the aircraft, including basic attitude awareness and performance
2) Basic skill in handing threats and errors, including how to know when airplanes get sideways and "the big picture"
3) Basic skill in handling people, including knowing when you need to pay more attention to the person you're flying with.
250 hours to devlop these skills in what is basically a non-supervise 121 operation is absolutely laughable. LAUGHABLE.
You don't develop these skills while flying with a CFI
You don't develop these skills while flying in the right seat of an automated jet
You don't develop these skills while flying in the right seat, letting the captain and the dispatcher make the calls
You don't develop these skills sitting in a simulator "flying" pre-scripted "scenarios". You have NO skin in that game.
People skoff at the idea that a CFI that spends "1,000 hours in the pattern" doesn't learn anything, but I submit that that is EXACTLY the kind of experiences that form the foundation.
As a CFI you:
Manually hand the aircraft all the time. Most of the aircraft are relatively low performace, which makes economy of action and performance essential.
You are observing a newbie constantly, making you VERY aware of what mistakes cause what problems, and, more importantly, what corrective actions are necessary, and HOW TO RAPIDLY IMPLEMENT THEM.
How to read people. No one is as uptight as a CFI signing off a guy for first solo. You know exactly every little twitch and quirk. You also learn how to resist telling someone how to do your job ("ahh, sign him off...he's a good guy").
You develop PIC skills as to how to make decisions as to when to fly, and are constantly looking for threats to your well being, as well as that of the student.
But, being a CFI isn't enough, so lets throw some 135 time in there as well, where you:
1) Learn to handle and monitor the aircraft, ALONE, because your life depends on it.
2) How to "THINK" about the weather, because there isn't a prayer of going over it.
3) Learn how to handle the pressure from chair bound idiots telling you to fly or that it's "good to go", including subtle, and not-so-subtle threats to your job. You learn how to say NO.
It just so happens that 1,500 hours (roughly 800 hours of dual given, plus 500 as PIC in 135) is the sweet spot for guys to START to know WTF they are doing, and more importantly, what they DON'T KNOW.
To think that a pilot who has been "handled" from baby bottle to throttle, with 300 hours, has any of these skills is ridiculous on its face. The system worked well for decades, but when companies started deviating from what worked for so long, then someone has to step in and fix it for them.
Here endeth the lesson. Now get off my lawn.
Richman
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
So how do you explain the situation at Republic where folks simply aren't showing up to the class dates they've been offered?
Mike H
Well-Known Member
You do realize the USAF qualifies their pilots with only 400 hours, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Air_Force_aeronautical_rating
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
Paging Hacker in 3..2..1..
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
You do realize the that the military operates in a HIGHLY structured enrionment, completely unlike the civilian world, right?
When is the last time you briefed for 3 hours for a 45 minute "sortie", then de-briefed for another 2 hours, and you had constant, direct interaction/supervision/evaluation with your direct and indirect superiors, at every step of the process?
Let's see how this compares to your normal 121 supervision. Lessee, chief pilot sits in his/her office 1,200 miles away, never see him/her. Line check? Sure, if you're a captain, maybe one a year, and never as a FO. One brief checkride every 6 months (12 if you're AQP). Otherwise, you are operating completely unsupervised. Unless you bend metal, call in sick or don't wear your hat, you don't hear from ANYONE.
Yup, I could certainly see where people think that's the same.
Richman
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
And they do that on a 90-day fast track?
Apples-to-hand grenades comparison. They also start with usually bright people, and can weed them out.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Less than that, actually -- most SUPT graduates (the level at which they actually get their wings) have more on the order of 250 hours. The other 150-ish hours are spent on aircraft-specific and mission-specific qualification.
As others have noted, it isn't an equal comparison to any civilian ab-initio training; the military has highly selective entrance standards in terms of aptitude and achievement, the students live in the training environment 24/7 for a year straight, and failure to achieve at the proscribed rate means you are cut from the program.
In addition, those programs include flying aircraft which are significantly higher performance than any civilian training program, flying to commercial/instrument "PTS" standards from day one of training, and that 250 hours includes high performance flying that the vast majority of civilian pilots never even attempt, much less actually achieve any proficiency (like aerobatics, formation flying, low-level/high-speed navigation, etc). If you add in the extra 150 hours after undergraduate training, then the time can include all kinds of other types of flying that civilians never see, including large-force air combat maneuvering, shooting weapons and dropping bombs, supersonic flight and dogfighting, etc.
It would be damn near impossible to run a civilian training program that does the same thing and be able to stay in business or make a profit.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Once the upper levels fill up again they will have full classes.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
I didn't intend it to be an equal comparrison. Richman said that it was only at
Clearly that's not always the case- certainly not with the military, and with just a couple of well-publicized and sensationalized exeptions, it really wasn't the case with regional airlines either.
caliginousface
Frank N. Beans
I don't think Richman generalized enough to include the military, a little stretch of his words there.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
Neither did he exclude the military. At any rate, the larger point is that, except for a couple of highly publicized cases, the regionals were recruiting 250, 350, 500 hour pilots who were capable and did the job competently & safely. Many of them even advanced to the majors
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Lulz. How many crashes does it take to make it a bad idea?
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
None were sued into bankruptcy, so from management's perspective - it would take many more crashes to be a bad idea.
Cost of doing business
Ziggyfuzz
Well-Known Member
Yes but with better training methods and checking standards, and a lot more time and education to think over their mistakes between missions. Not at all like a modern cookie cutter 141 flight school. One of my gigs is as an examiner, I have yet to fly with a guy at 250 hours (ish) that I would want to have in the right seat with me or anyone else. Basic flight skills are indeed lax these days, this has permeated modern flight training like a cancer. Couple that with a lack of operational experience (like richman speaks of) and you have an accident waiting to happen. I tell you tho...we wont need to worry about this in 5 years, folks already flying will have the time and experience, and there are no young Americans to speak of signing up for career pilot training...the pipeline is drying up.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
Except for a few highly publicized cases, a lack of CRM and complete captain's authority worked just fine.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I've flown with a few guys that could be CRM case studies, so I'm happy to take the new school CRM model.