Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
That's the problem. A lot of people in the industry are not in the right mind and claw anyway to get into it.
1500hr Rule - Do you think the industry will adjust? If so, how?
- Thread starter B.E. Lewis
- Start date
That's the problem. A lot of people in the industry are not in the right mind and claw anyway to get into it.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
It's entry level in that it's usually someone's first turbine 121 job, and is usually the lowest hanging fruit for someone who wants to gain that type of experience. Experienced 121/135 turbine pilots (the people who would most improve airline safety) don't usually end up there, with the exception of experienced guys who use the regionals to stay current during a furlough.
That doesn't mean that it's only <1000 hour pilots who end up there; I know 4000+ hour pilots who take regional jobs to break into 121, or start to build multi-turbine. I saw that a lot with Cape Air: Pilots would do 2-3 years there, get to about 3000-4000TT, then bail for SkyWest or XJT with the intention of building turbine time before moving on. The regionals are entry-level 121 turbine jobs, regardless of a person's total time.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
The one thing I keep hearing is things will never change.
Reality is things will never stop changing. Our entire society, and the aviation industry in particular, is undergoing monumental changes as the baby-boomers begin to retire. The entire major/regional airline model is going to change, maybe for the better, maybe for the worse.
If you are operating under the delusion that this industry will continue to operate as it has in the past 20 years, then you are in for a big surprise.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Things change. Trust me, as a guy who's now on the bottom of a seniority list for the 4th time, nothing ever remains static in this business.
Regionals will never attract high-qualified applicants simply due to the business model; a 50-76 seat RJ operated on a razor-thin contract simply does not generate the revenue to pay pilots to the level a major or LCC would. Yes, regionals could probably pay more--not much more, mind you--but never to the point that well-qualified pilots would choose them over higher-paying options.
That business model is most definitely in flux, and I hope more flying is shifted back to mainline. When the industry does improve, the 1500 rule won't be the impetus.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
Even beyond the initial learning curve, I would say that at 1500 CFI is going to have a harder time adapting to the 121 world than a lower time CFI. I'm talking both having 1500 hours, but one having 1000+ CFI and one with less than 500 hours as a CFI. The ones with the 1000+ hours as a CFI have the instructor mentality so built in to their normal aircraft operation that they have a hard time reliquishing that authority.
Not only are they new to a different type of flying in a different aircraft, but they tend to overstep their bounds and their authority.
Give me someone that has 1000+ hours in the IFR enroute environment over a 1000+ hour CFI any day of the week.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Then perhaps we agree on one thing- regional airlines will likely be the first stop for pilots in their *121* career, yes. Being the first point at that level is hardly an 'entry level job' in professional flying as a whole, however. Previously, a 121 airline job was not out of reach for a pilot's first-ever paying job. With the 1500 rule, it will be.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
That's a very broad brush, and it's using the color maybe only you see. Ya know?
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
I'm currenty flying with someone who has 1000+ as a CFI. Just like every other high time CFI I've had the pleasure of flying with recently. Think they know everything and always overstepping their bounds. FOs that were never CFIs and got practical knowledge and experience in the real world are 10x better.
You'll understand better if you ever get over to the left seat.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
Really? I've never had a paying flying job (other than freelance stuff). Doubt I would ever need one to get hired at a 121 operation someday, but that's not my bag exactly.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
You, you mean, people would PAY to fly this thing?
(I mean, it's pretty damn cool, but jeezis.
)Reality, thou art harsh.
JOEFRIDAY2
Well-Known Member
As far as the 1500 Hour ATP rule being rolled back--it's not going to happen. What has happened is that the route to the right seat has gone back to the way it was in the 70's and 80's. In order to get to the airlines, it's going to take thousands of hours of real flight experience.
Some have spoken about exemptions or exceptions. There are some of the 4 year universities pushing for a lower number of hours for their GRADUATES to qualify for an ATP rating. They may be able to get a lower number ATP for their GRADUATES with a 4 YEAR DEGREE. What that number is--no one knows at this time, but I have heard 750-950 hours being discussed. But keep in mind, it will still take 4-5 years, of college and flight training, to receive such an exemption if one is even granted. It's not a fast track. It's not a quick and cheap way into this career. It's not a quick way to train a bunch of new pilots.
For all practical purposes, the 1500 hour ATP rule has already kicked in because no regional is hiring anyone these days without 1500 hours because of the impending ATP deadline.
The regionals will be the first airlines to experience the inability to find qualified applicants. This will slow or stop their growth. Some will cease to exist for a number of reasons that may or may not be related to the inability to hire qualified pilots. It's not going to get any better because the supply of new pilots in the US has pretty much stopped for simple economic reasons.
The majors will continue to pull pilots from the regionals and will do so until that supply runs out. At some time in the future, when the supply of regional pilots has run out, the majors will wake up and realize that their growth will be restricted by the number of qualified pilots they can hire.
In the future, my prediction is that the majors will establish a part 142 ab intro training program in order to insure a steady supply of pilots for their company. That program, if and when established, will change how professional flight training is done. I would expect the airlines to lobby the FAA and Congress for a reduced number of hours, or a new pilot rating, in order to get pilots into the right seat, provided the 142 requirements are met.
The only other way for the majors to hire pilots, once the regional pool has been exhausted, would be to "steal" them from other major airlines with hiring bonuses, etc. Seniority has always stopped this before. No one can afford to leave a $120,000 a year job to start over again at $20,000 a year with another airline. With all of the mergers, that is not as likely now that the last two (AA and US) at the dance have officially announced their merger.
Joe
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
As someone who has several thousand hours in the left seat, you couldn't be more wrong.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
And I respect that is your experience. So far mine has been the opposite.
I think a lot of the difference could be corporate culture and how FOs are trained. Where I am, there seems to be no emphasis on SIC duties and responsibilities, thus we end up with new pilots that have no clue and therefore their prior experiences take over.
In my opinion, the whole ATP rule and who is better qualified is a circular argument. Every person is going to have a different opinion on what is better.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
If you say so. I'm just suggesting that personal, anecdotal experience does not always constitute a statistical certainty.
See what I mean?
So you admit, then, that your statement above has no validity beyond your own opinion. Correct?
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Yes, Russ, we all know you make piles of money pushing electrons and have racked up many hours flying around in 172s and 206s and whatnot. You're a statistical anomaly- most aspiring airline pilots are starting from 0/0- zero hours, zero extra dollars to spend on buying their flight time instead of being hired to fly for it.
The point at hand is that the 1500 hour rule will kill PFJ and puppy mill 250 hour airline newhires by making the price of admission far too costly for the unmotivated and untalented to buy their way in by flying left and right dummy circles with an instructor on board until they meet requirements.
This is all gone- and all the conflicts of interest in safety and pilot pushing that come with those things.
Don't you now have to have at least 1000 hours SIC in 121 ops before you can upgrade to captain? I feel like I remember reading that somewhere.
What a dong swinging contest this is turning into. Can't hire low time pilots because they drool on themselves and will crash planes full of old grannies into schools full of puppies. You can have 1500 hours but it has to be the right kind of 1500 hours otherwise you can't adapt to a new job right off the bat and you suck.
We should just welcome UAVs that way people can stop developing intense hatreds of one another over the internet and have a beer with each other.
We should just welcome UAVs that way people can stop developing intense hatreds of one another over the internet and have a beer with each other.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Are you old enough to buy beer?
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
Yup, I can't wait for people to tell me how my ATP is worthless, or not real, because I don't have 1500 hours in an airplane.