141 Commercial Course

[Douglas]

I need some advice (proof), but cannot go into too much detail due to this being a public forum.

Our 141 Commercial syllabus, ASA Pilot Manual, has a total of 55 hours of dual flight instruction in the 120 hour course.
One of our students felt this was wrong and called the FSDO, hoping that the 55 hours could be cumulative from his private and instrument dual received.

The FSDO told him his was right.

This is not a "gray" area in my book and has left a few of my fellow CFIs scratching our heads.

Any help?

I don't believe we are wrong by following the syllabus, or by saying that the 55 hours is part of the commercial course and not a Total logged situation.

-Douglas

 

[minitour]

That's wrong. The 55 hours of dual is part of the commercial course. It's right there in 141. I think it's appendix D.

You need 120 hours and 55 of that has to be dual as part of the commercial course unless there's a special curricula. If you're using the ASA program and that was your approved course, then that's it. Your approved course includes 55 hours of dual as part of the commercial training. The student can whine all he wants, but no dice. Doesn't matter what Mr. FSDO said. If he's got 250 TT, he can always finish part 61.

-mini

 

[Douglas]

Thanks mini, to me and everybody else it is extremely easy read, in black and white.
Right now we don't know how to address the FSDO properly.
You know, that damn etiquette.

 

[shdw]

I am not sure what your 141 program has but if it is part of a college? If so I would see if there is a legal aid that you can speak with to figure out your proper etiquette when approaching the FSDO. If you have nobody on campus maybe some of your CFIs have training from a college that has a legal department for classes like aviation law? Either way I would contact an attorney on the matter especially if he is going to seek some kind of reimbursement you might as well get ahead of it.

In either case I think it sounds pretty black and white to me too so I have no idea what the FSDO is talking about. Appendix D (4) (b) (1) says exactly what you said so I am unsure how they got to this. But without thoroughly reading every FAR you never know if there is some loophole the FSDO guy knows about that you haven't heard of.

 

[minitour]

...you never know if there is some loophole the FSDO guy knows about that you haven't heard of.

Yep. It's called Mr. FSDO doesn't know what he's talking about and you're the one that gets screwed if he's wrong and you take his "advice". That's the loop-hole they use. It's awful. Ask 10 different people at 10 different FSDOs and you'll get 15 different answers.

-mini

 

[JulietBravo]

And I thought our FSDO was screwed up...

 

[ILS37R]

I have nothing further to add in relation to your question, but I can't help thinking...

...thinking, well, that I can't think of much scarier than a commercial-rated pilot with around 70 TT. *shiver*

 

[minitour]

...thinking, well, that I can't think of much scarier than a commercial-rated pilot with around 70 TT. *shiver*

How about a CFI with around 90 TT?

-mini

 

[LS1 Life]

How about a CFI with around 90 TT?

-mini

thats impossible. Even if the person were to obtain all ratings at minimal hours he would have over 200hr TT

 

[minitour]

thats impossible. Even if the person were to obtain all ratings at minimal hours he would have over 200hr TT

You missed the context of the comment.

However, ff one did their entire training under part 141, with simulator/ftd time included, I believe you could finish a CFII initial with under 200 total flight hours. I think you can credit 2.5 hours for Private, 9 for Instrument (it's actually a percentage....but that percentage of 35 works out to around 9) and I don't remember how many for commercial. But a CFII course (141) is 15 hours. 190+15=205-9=196-2.5=193.5

-mini

 

[Soku39]

Wow the FSDO approved the 141 course, and if you sign the contract, then that is what you need to get the commercial. This is so obviously black and white that it's laughable. Good luck...

 

[firepilot68]

He said

The FSDO told him his was right.

????
Perhaps there was something missing in translation. We all know how the grapevine works. Maybe he did not express that he was talking about 141 commercial, or FSDO assumed that it was 61, or maybe he didn't ask them at all and is just trying to get you to do what he wants.

I agree that it is 55 dual and 120 once he starts the 141 commercial syllabus. As always, FARs are the lowest bar of regulation, we can always be more restrictive as flight schools and as instructors.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

You missed the context of the comment.

However, ff one did their entire training under part 141, with simulator/ftd time included, I believe you could finish a CFII initial with under 200 total flight hours. I think you can credit 2.5 hours for Private, 9 for Instrument (it's actually a percentage....but that percentage of 35 works out to around 9) and I don't remember how many for commercial. But a CFII course (141) is 15 hours. 190+15=205-9=196-2.5=193.5

-mini

I thought Embry-Riddle had a deal set up under part 142 where you needed like 140TT with like 50 of sim time. So, theoretically, you could be at like 150-160 hours with a CFI, right?

 

[minitour]

I thought Embry-Riddle had a deal set up under part 142 where you needed like 140TT with like 50 of sim time. So, theoretically, you could be at like 150-160 hours with a CFI, right?

Yep. Hell, you cold be a CFI at 140.1 hours if you're ready and do the CFI under part 61 only, assuming that's how the program is set up (140 hours under 142).

-mini

 

[JrsyGuy]

It doesn't seem like the guy is arguing the 120 hours of total time the commercial course will give you but rather the need for the full 55 hours of instruction during the course. I for one don't know enough about 141 stuff to comment further

 

[minitour]

It doesn't seem like the guy is arguing the 120 hours of total time the commercial course will give you but rather the need for the full 55 hours of instruction during the course. I for one don't know enough about 141 stuff to comment further

You need whatever the approved program says you need. If it says 120TT with 55 dual, then you need (at least) 120 TT with (at least) 55 dual.

You can get a special curricula approved with fewer hours, but I don't know how common it is. Airman Flight School had one for their commercial program when I went through it. I can't remember what the reduction went down to.

It all comes down to what is in the approved air agency's TCO.

-mini

 

[JrsyGuy]

Yeah I understand that but it seems a lot of guys who have posted here so far are under the impression the student is trying to forgo on the 120 tt. Doesn't really matter as he is wrong either way, but still just clarifying what the discussion actually seems to be about.

 

[Douglas]

Discussion is about the amount of dual that is required.
-----
No worries, we have it all settled.

And settled correctly.