Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
I have a very unique situation that will probably remove my anonymity to the hiring body just by posing the question, but I appear to be at a roadblock I cannot seem to get over it, so I am looking for advice.
This is where it gets tl;dr.....
As of Nov last year(2018) the Feds rewrote FAR 61.159, which is the Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating (or the 1500 hour rule) which is described in paragraph (a): Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least......follow on regulations XC time, Inst time, etc...
The reg is so new that if you have the printed ASA FAR/AIM 2019 it was written with the old reg. The updated reg can be read here:
So the Feds split the old 61.159(c), which dealt with SIC time and FE time and how that can be applied to the 1500 hr rule, into two new paragraphs. The new paragraphs (c) deals with SIC time and (d) which now specifically deals with FE time and how it applies to the 1500 hour rule. My situation is directly related to 61.159(d)(2) which states:
(d) A commercial pilot may log the following flight engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section and the total time as a pilot required by §61.160:
(1) Civilian FE time....
(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—
(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;
(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
So I meet the requirements of (2)(i)(ii)(iii), and I have highlighted the part in bold because this is the part that was added by the Feds to the old rule. Before, they way the old rule was written you could only apply the 3 to 1 hours to the 1500 hour requirement from paragraph (a) for the ATP and that appeared to be it.
However, the plot thickens. There was a letter of interpretation from 2016 where a military FE asked the question about applying FE time in 61.159(c)(old rule) towards 61.160(f) which deals with the R-ATP.
In the letter of interpretation, the Feds stated that yes, the FE could apply the time towards 61.160(f) which is the R-ATP at 1500 hours when the cross country time is shortened to 200 hours. However, in the interpretation letter the FAA states this:
"Moreover, 61.159 does not contain an express limitation on the applicability of 61.159(c)(which is the old rule for FE time) toward 61.160. If the FAA had intended such a limitation, it would have expressly included such a limitation as it did when it limited the number of hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of 61.159(a) and 61.160 that could be obtained in a full flight simulator or flight training device See 14CFR61.159(a)(6)."
So then in Nov of 2018 the rule was rewritten to include the bolded part above.... and the total time as a pilot required by §61.160. The Feds did not put a subparagraph attachment to that rule, so as it is written now I read that to mean that I could apply FE time to all of 61.160. With that being said my situation is this. I am a CFI building time for my first regional job. I meet all the other requirements for 61.160(b) other than I don't meet the 1000 hours of total time. If I am allowed to apply my 3 to 1 hours up to 500 hours of FE time towards my total time, then I would meet all the requirements of the R-ATP according to 61.160(b)
Unfortunately I cannot seem to get my regional of choice to agree to operate under this new regulation. They are stating that OKC has stated I cannot apply FE time to 61.160 even thought the reg states otherwise. So it is not that it is a company policy not to put me through class because of an internal reason, they are stating the Feds will not allow it. I am in a "cadet" program with a Sept class date. If I am not allowed to apply my FE time towards my total time required by 61.160(b) I am afraid I am not going to have the required hours by Sept.
As I see it I have a few options:
1. Apply to other regionals and see if they are being guided by the new reg (I have it third hand that one in particular has already hired an FE based on the new rule and put him through the class)
2. Continue to tactfully "pester" the regional of choice and try to convince them that it is acceptable to operate under the new reg. (Maybe calling OKC myself? I'm not sure who I should speak too)
3. Stop into my local FSDO and see if I can get someone to give me a sanity check. And even if they agree with me, I am not sure how I would get the regional of choice to listen to my local FSDO.
4. Another option may be to call a company that actually puts on the ATP/CTP course and see if they would put me through on my own dime based on the current regulation. And if so, if I showed up to my class date at the regional of choice with the R-ATP already in hand but short of the 1000 61.160(b) hours, would they still turn me away?
The way I see it, if I just continue to build time until I have the logged 1000 hours, I am probably close to a year(9 months at my current rate) out of hitting the mark. Which is an eternity for a career changer with a family in tow, like me. Also a year worth of seniority I am giving up.
I welcome any an all advice. Am I crazy? Am I reading the regulation incorrectly? If the other regional is hiring based on the new reg how do I get that info to my regional of choice?
This is where it gets tl;dr.....
As of Nov last year(2018) the Feds rewrote FAR 61.159, which is the Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating (or the 1500 hour rule) which is described in paragraph (a): Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least......follow on regulations XC time, Inst time, etc...
The reg is so new that if you have the printed ASA FAR/AIM 2019 it was written with the old reg. The updated reg can be read here:
So the Feds split the old 61.159(c), which dealt with SIC time and FE time and how that can be applied to the 1500 hr rule, into two new paragraphs. The new paragraphs (c) deals with SIC time and (d) which now specifically deals with FE time and how it applies to the 1500 hour rule. My situation is directly related to 61.159(d)(2) which states:
(d) A commercial pilot may log the following flight engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section and the total time as a pilot required by §61.160:
(1) Civilian FE time....
(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—
(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;
(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
So I meet the requirements of (2)(i)(ii)(iii), and I have highlighted the part in bold because this is the part that was added by the Feds to the old rule. Before, they way the old rule was written you could only apply the 3 to 1 hours to the 1500 hour requirement from paragraph (a) for the ATP and that appeared to be it.
However, the plot thickens. There was a letter of interpretation from 2016 where a military FE asked the question about applying FE time in 61.159(c)(old rule) towards 61.160(f) which deals with the R-ATP.
In the letter of interpretation, the Feds stated that yes, the FE could apply the time towards 61.160(f) which is the R-ATP at 1500 hours when the cross country time is shortened to 200 hours. However, in the interpretation letter the FAA states this:
"Moreover, 61.159 does not contain an express limitation on the applicability of 61.159(c)(which is the old rule for FE time) toward 61.160. If the FAA had intended such a limitation, it would have expressly included such a limitation as it did when it limited the number of hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of 61.159(a) and 61.160 that could be obtained in a full flight simulator or flight training device See 14CFR61.159(a)(6)."
So then in Nov of 2018 the rule was rewritten to include the bolded part above.... and the total time as a pilot required by §61.160. The Feds did not put a subparagraph attachment to that rule, so as it is written now I read that to mean that I could apply FE time to all of 61.160. With that being said my situation is this. I am a CFI building time for my first regional job. I meet all the other requirements for 61.160(b) other than I don't meet the 1000 hours of total time. If I am allowed to apply my 3 to 1 hours up to 500 hours of FE time towards my total time, then I would meet all the requirements of the R-ATP according to 61.160(b)
Unfortunately I cannot seem to get my regional of choice to agree to operate under this new regulation. They are stating that OKC has stated I cannot apply FE time to 61.160 even thought the reg states otherwise. So it is not that it is a company policy not to put me through class because of an internal reason, they are stating the Feds will not allow it. I am in a "cadet" program with a Sept class date. If I am not allowed to apply my FE time towards my total time required by 61.160(b) I am afraid I am not going to have the required hours by Sept.
As I see it I have a few options:
1. Apply to other regionals and see if they are being guided by the new reg (I have it third hand that one in particular has already hired an FE based on the new rule and put him through the class)
2. Continue to tactfully "pester" the regional of choice and try to convince them that it is acceptable to operate under the new reg. (Maybe calling OKC myself? I'm not sure who I should speak too)
3. Stop into my local FSDO and see if I can get someone to give me a sanity check. And even if they agree with me, I am not sure how I would get the regional of choice to listen to my local FSDO.
4. Another option may be to call a company that actually puts on the ATP/CTP course and see if they would put me through on my own dime based on the current regulation. And if so, if I showed up to my class date at the regional of choice with the R-ATP already in hand but short of the 1000 61.160(b) hours, would they still turn me away?
The way I see it, if I just continue to build time until I have the logged 1000 hours, I am probably close to a year(9 months at my current rate) out of hitting the mark. Which is an eternity for a career changer with a family in tow, like me. Also a year worth of seniority I am giving up.
I welcome any an all advice. Am I crazy? Am I reading the regulation incorrectly? If the other regional is hiring based on the new reg how do I get that info to my regional of choice?
