"Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Career

[Trip7]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I look at things this way:

15 years ago folks said, "Jets at the regionals? Whatever, no big deal! We don't want those 50 seat jets!"

Then a few years later those mainline guys said, "Uhh...well, things are going down the crapper, if we let them fly 70 seaters, we can keep our retirement!"

Then we get 70 seaters at the regionals.

Then a few years later those mainline guys said, "Oh man, we're in REALLY bad shape, if we let them fly 86 seaters, we can keep our retirement!"

Then we get 86 seaters at the regionals.

It's only a matter of time guys. The formula works, it reduces the overall cost to the mainline companies and they will do what they have to do to force our hand with this. The mainline companies will have more bankruptcies of convenience and more contracts will get gutted.

It's a driving principal of capitalism guys, any cost that CAN go down WILL go down one way or another. We can't stop it, we're not strong enough to, and history tells us that we've never been strong enough to. I think that we're deluding ourselves by saying otherwise, when to me the facts are incredibly clear.

There's a trend here, and a couple of cats from the internet ain't gonna stop it. The only thing that will stop it is a REAL union, which none of us have. We're divided, and we'll fall just like we have every other time.

I mean seriously, when was the last time a pilot group REALLY stuck it to management and was successful in the end? American's contract is gone, and so is United. Management won guys, and Charlie is right; this is our career now.

Kids, don't do crack.....j/k

You and Charlie's thought process are highly flawed IMO.

86 seats are only at Airways. CAL's scope is still at 50 seats and I doubt it'll be changing anytime soon.

I don't get your REAL union point so you'll have to elaborate on that.

Last time we stuck it to management? Ah, the Summer of Love. Didn't turn out so well later but at least we can say we "stuck it to em!"

Management won? To me we were backing them into a dark alleyway last year when they started offering signing bonuses (PCL, MESA, Republic), free RJ courses (Eagle) until Congress came in and saved them (age 65)

This industry is cyclical. We are headed down right now now but it will pick back up. No need for the doom and gloom, the world is over posts. I heard this same forum doom and gloom happened after 9-11 for a couple years.

I'm telling you, in a couple years it'll be back to the ATP vs FBO and Low Timers at the regionals threads we had during the past hiring spree.

 

[Gonzo]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I hope your right, but even after 9-11 it wasn't this bad. You got UA and US in bad shape. Mesa is almost out of money. XJT is getting F-ed with by CAL. Who knows how CHQ is going to look after DAL/NW. APA is trying to end Eagle.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I don't think we'll see much further on scope erosion. Most mainline MECs are currently working on strategies to recapture scope, so giving more away isn't really in the cards at this point. A more militant brand of reps like Capt. Wallach at UAL have taken the reigns of most MECs, so it's a different ball game than years past. If anything, I think we'll see some regionals go bankrupt over the next 5-10 years and the number of RJs will actually shrink.

Scope erosion is well at work everywhere, everyday. Losing out to bigger airplanes at regionals isn't even always the issue.

Example: The AA flights from DFW-ORD are always jammed full. Be nice to get some more going, right? How about from DAL? Love Field and the Wright Amendment limit how big an airplane you can get out of there, etc, etc. Can ya get around it? Sure! Just take the AE 50 seaters that were doing the MCI/AUS runs and have 'em fly DAL-ORD. Popular with the downtown Dallas business crowd? You bet.

It's that easy. It started years ago and has been creeping in like the tide ever since. Back when Bob Crandall parked some DC-10s, the MD-80s had to pick up the slack. So if there's no MD-80 to cover the DFW-SHV run, who does it?

Eagle did it. With a Saab-340. Nowadays, it's an ERJ run.

It's that easy. Once the precedent is set, it becomes that much harder to be able to take it back under the limitation of Scope.

At this point, I'd say it's evolve or die.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Word holmes, bro here's spot on.

Warren Buffet has said that anything with high labor costs in this country will be moved out as soon as it possibly can to places where lower labor costs are available. If you can't move the products production (in this case, our flying) out of the country, there better be a really good reason for the production sticking around here, and even still market forces will force wages down.

We haven't even begun to see how little folks will fly mainline airplanes for, either. I think we've got a pretty good idea of what pilots will fly RJ's for, and we're at it. Now that we've proven we can and WILL fly jets for $40,000 in the right seat and $80,000 a year in the left seat, there's nothing to stop wages from being forced to an equilibrium point based around those wages at the upper end.

Years ago some VERY smart folks on this forum were yelling and screaming about how we took Metroliner pay rates and extended them up to get our current RJ rates instead of taking 737 rates and extending them down. We'll never get those 737 rates back, and again; market forces will continue to force wages down until we start crashing airplanes because all the qualified pilots out there are gone.

Further, we're not a real union. The longshoremen have a real union. Plumbers have real unions, as do electricians. If we had a real union, we'd be employed by the union and contracted out by our airlines to do our work. We'd get our health insurance from the union and we'd get our retirement from the union.

And Todd, I'd love to hear how you think we've actually beaten back management in the last 15 years AND HELD ONTO THE GAINS. We haven't made any gains, we've only slowed down managements progress. Without the union the degregation of our career would be much faster, but all we're doing is slowing down the downward spiral instead of preventing it and turning it backwards. We talk about taking it back, but we'll take a concessionary contract to keep our jobs when our companies are mismanaged and shrug and say, "Well I'd rather lose 5% than lose my job!" It's just that after a couple of those, you didn't lose 5%, you lost 50% (ala Delta).

I'm not saying this because of the downward trend that's happening in the industry, or because of my furlough. Ya'll think I'm some bitter old coot, but that couldn't be any further from the truth. I have my eyes wide open, and I'm seeing what's happening in this industry. Since deregulation we've had a series of cycles and every time the industry dips, we never regain what we once had. While things will get better and worse, the overall trend of that sine wave will be a downward trend unless we can do some things to truly arrest the free fall we're in. We haven't been able to do it since 1982, and I doubt we'll be able to do it in the next 10 years.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

ALPA = Air Line Pilots Association
WHY?
Association sounds more white collar.
Union is blue collar works and a lot of pilots like to think they are better then blue collar workers.

"Association" is just a name. As a legal entity, and in practice, it's a union.

If we had a real union, we'd be employed by the union and contracted out by our airlines to do our work. We'd get our health insurance from the union and we'd get our retirement from the union.

That's a guild, not a union. What we have is a union.

And Todd, I'd love to hear how you think we've actually beaten back management in the last 15 years AND HELD ONTO THE GAINS. We haven't made any gains, we've only slowed down managements progress.

Talk to the super-senior folks at your company and ask them how much things have improved since the days of the old CAL Express carriers like Brit Air. ALPA has made tremendous gains and held on to them at all of the regional carriers. Have we taken a beating at the legacy level? Yep. That was inevitable because of deregulation. It has nothing to do with not having a "real union," it's about not having friendly lawmakers and regulators. If we get 8+ years of a friendly administration, then things will take a turn for the better. Your pessimism is unwarranted. If McCain gets elected, then I'll join you in your pit of misery, but not until then.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

86 seats are only at Airways. CAL's scope is still at 50 seats and I doubt it'll be changing anytime soon.

The Q400 begs to differ.....

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

"
That's a guild, not a union. What we have is a union.

I'd love to have a pension paid for by the union that followed me no matter which airline I went to. My mom has that, but she's in the Teamsters. Are they a "guild" or a "union?"


Todd, I know things are better with ALPA than without, but there are some short comings. There are things ALPA could do MUCH better if there wasn't such cut throat issues between different MECs. It would have taken just a slight nudge to put Mesaga and Pinnacle MECs at each others' throats, and NWA was trying their best to make that happen. If they weren't distracted by a merger right now, they probably would still be playing that game. I'd like to say that if Skywest were ALPA, they wouldn't have been used as a gun put to XJT's head by CAL to get a cheaper deal for regional flying. But I can't honestly say that. In many ways the "not a real union" argument has a bit of merit.

 

[SoCalAprch]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I just think its funny that 10 months ago no one was talking about all this doom and gloom yet we were still flying the same planes for the same pay and regionals were growing at a fast rate. Now regionals are furloughing and shrinking. Isn't this not what all you guys were saying needed to happen to keep these mainline jobs available for us in the future? As soon as the economy takes a hit and a few people hit the streets the world is suddenly coming to an end. I remember when I first came over here everyone with any sense always talked about how this industry is cyclical. Now some of those same people are saying its never gonna end. Some of us can be really short sighted in my opinion. The economy will rebound and it will be back to business as usual and hopefully we can get a labor friendly government to help us take back the stuff that management has taken in the last 8 years.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Now regionals are furloughing and shrinking. Isn't this not what all you guys were saying needed to happen to keep these mainline jobs available for us in the future?

It's half of what needs to happen. The other half is for mainline to take delivery of airplanes to replace the ones that the regionals lost. If they don't, it's just a net loss of jobs, not a re-allocation of jobs.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I'd love to have a pension paid for by the union that followed me no matter which airline I went to. My mom has that, but she's in the Teamsters. Are they a "guild" or a "union?"

ALPA has explored this idea, but found it to be unworkable. R & I was never one of my strong suits, so I didn't keep up on the details. Not sure what the reasons were for dismissing the idea. In any case, what I was referring to about a guild was the idea that you work for your guild and are simply assigned an employer as work becomes available, as jtrain suggested.

It would have taken just a slight nudge to put Mesaga and Pinnacle MECs at each others' throats

I disagree. We had a superb relationship with the MSA MEC, and I don't see anything that could have put us at each others' throats. Maybe the individual rank-and-file pilots would have felt animosity towards each other, but not the leadership.

Look, ALPA isn't perfect, and I've never claimed that it is. But the "not a real union" argument is bull----. Just because a union has faults, as all unions do, doesn't mean that it ceases to be a union. We should work towards fixing the faults and move on. Throwing our hands up in the air and claiming that ALPA isn't a "real union" will get us nowhere. You want to see a union that isn't a "real" union? Come to where I work, where my union isn't even AFL-CIO affiliated. Then you'll have a real argument for "not a real union."

 

[kellwolf]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Sorry, I just don't see truckers undercutting fellow truckers for more driving or career advancement. I think one of ALPA's biggest flaws is that they don't stick to the "jacking up the house" philosophy that used to be around. I don't have a lot of confidence that if an ALPA carrier took a lesser contract than, say ASA, in order to undercut them for growth that ALPA national wouldn't approve the contract. That's how it should be. If a pilot group takes a lesser than than average contract in order to secure growth and advancement, it doesn't make it past National. The guys in the president seat would be sweating more over if they were gonna make it past the next election than what's the best for the regional pilots as a whole. That's just how I feel.

 

[killbilly]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Example: The AA flights from DFW-ORD are always jammed full. Be nice to get some more going, right? How about from DAL? Love Field and the Wright Amendment limit how big an airplane you can get out of there, etc, etc.

They repealed the Wright Amendment, mostly - there are still some restrictions, but I don't think that's one. I might be wrong. SWA does regular flights from DAL to MDW with stops in either MCI or STL.

If you're speaking direct to ORD, I don't think there is a limitation on AA from running a 73 out of there to ORD, but again, I might be wrong.

 

[IrishSheepdog]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I just wanted to throw this out there: If we rename the Airline Pilots Association to the Airline Pilots Union, we'll have to refer to it as "APU." That sucks.

Anyways, back to saving the world everyone.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Dude that'd be AWESOME! Then we could make stickers for our flight kits that say, "APU FAIL" when somebody gets a crappy contract or their company has to furlough.

 

[staplegun]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

FWIW, the Delta Pilot contract has pay rates for the Emb-195, Emb-190 and CRJ-900. If management wants those aircraft Delta pilots will fly them.

IMO scope is going to get tighter as time goes on.

You will see plenty of 70-seaters and some 76-seaters in the Delta system, but the 50-seaters are just going to start to go away. It's all about seat/mile costs, not payroll. We finally have a management that gets that.


Kevin

 

[Trip7]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

The Q400 begs to differ.....

Q400 is a true regional aircraft. Doubt you'll see it going EWR-ATL and stuff like that...

FWIW, the Delta Pilot contract has pay rates for the Emb-195, Emb-190 and CRJ-900. If management wants those aircraft Delta pilots will fly them.

IMO scope is going to get tighter as time goes on.

You will see plenty of 70-seaters and some 76-seaters in the Delta system, but the 50-seaters are just going to start to go away. It's all about seat/mile costs, not payroll. We finally have a management that gets that.


Kevin

Exactly. I doubt Staplegun, Doug, and the rest of the Southernjets/NWA pilots would vote in any new contract that loosened scope to 120 seats.

The 7 900s Comair were supposed to get has all of a sudden been yanked with no new carrier announced. That could be a sign they are heading to Southernjets.

 

[Nick]

Regions

Q400 is a true regional aircraft. Doubt you'll see it going EWR-ATL and stuff like that....

How about Boise to Los Angeles? That's about seven hundred miles which is the same as EWR-ATL.

I followed a Q out of Boise one day that was going to LAX so that's a real flight.

I bet a lot of money that it was operated by ___ mainline at some point in the past.

 

[Trip7]

Re: Regions

How about Boise to Los Angeles? That's about seven hundred miles which is the same as EWR-ATL.

I followed a Q out of Boise one day that was going to LAX so that's a real flight.

I bet a lot of money that it was operated by ___ mainline at some point in the past.

Horizon doesn't count, they do wacky stuff. 700nm flight is not efficient for a Q.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

They repealed the Wright Amendment, mostly - there are still some restrictions, but I don't think that's one. I might be wrong. SWA does regular flights from DAL to MDW with stops in either MCI or STL.

If you're speaking direct to ORD, I don't think there is a limitation on AA from running a 73 out of there to ORD, but again, I might be wrong.

It might not all be the Wright Amendment stuff, then. Staffing levels or contract issues might be the reason why we don't have AA flying out of DAL.

Then again, this stuff might be pre-Wright Amendment repeal, as well.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

FWIW, the Delta Pilot contract has pay rates for the Emb-195, Emb-190 and CRJ-900. If management wants those aircraft Delta pilots will fly them.

IMO scope is going to get tighter as time goes on.

You will see plenty of 70-seaters and some 76-seaters in the Delta system, but the 50-seaters are just going to start to go away. It's all about seat/mile costs, not payroll. We finally have a management that gets that.


Kevin

Welp that may be the best news I've had in a while. Hopefully we don't lose our 36 -900's and start furloughing . Well even if they did they'd flow up some of the Mesaba guys to delta for the hiring, so I'd still be ok I'd imagine.