"Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Career

Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

kgflyboy said:
Am I understanding you correctly? You just disagreed with someone for making a general blanket statement about rich people, but at the end of your post you made an even more absurd blanket statement about poor people. Good one. :banghead:
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I standby my absurd statement. poor people are poor for the reasons I stated before. now I understand people who are middle class or well off can be put in the poor house and bankruptcy real quick if they hit a medical problem and they don't have the proper coverage or no insurance at all.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Firebird2XC said:
Given that, we have to consider that whatever company we presently work for today may be the company we fly with for the rest of our careers.
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It would be nice to have that kind of job security.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Ummmm arent we missing something here?


People arent paid what they deserve. That is not how this society works.



Should police officers get 30K/year starting while a basketball player gets millions? Should teachers make dismal pay while an actor gets millions? How about a scientist that is a genious and dedicates his life to curing a disease that saves millions of lives....why doesnt he get millions?


I have to laugh when pilots think they should get more by some instrinsic value of their services. Maybe you should, but that argument will get you absolutely nowhere!

We are paid what the market will allow. That is how it works. Understand that and we will be closer to getting salaries up.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Propilot said:
Ummmm arent we missing something here?

People arent paid what they deserve. That is not how this society works.

Should police officers get 30K/year starting while a basketball player gets millions? Should teachers make dismal pay while an actor gets millions? How about a scientist that is a genious and dedicates his life to curing a disease that saves millions of lives....why doesnt he get millions?

I have to laugh when pilots think they should get more by some instrinsic value of their services. Maybe you should, but that argument will get you absolutely nowhere!

We are paid what the market will allow. That is how it works. Understand that and we will be closer to getting salaries up.
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A valid point. I agree- in part.

What I'm saying here.. is that WE understand the intrinsic value of our services. Where I believe your example falls flat with cops and teachers (and sometimes scientists, too) is because they're paid by tax dollars. As employees (most of us) of private enterprise, negotiating a share of the profit margin based on our own determination of our worth is totally acceptable.

The problem, however, is that we've been hoodwinked into accepting less and allowed a perceived bargaining disadvantage to become leverage against the whole profession. In other words, we need to speak up at the Regional level just as loudly as the Legacy/Major level- because there might not be any Legacy/Major level to "get up and get out" to anymore.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

b3181981 said:
I standby my absurd statement. poor people are poor for the reasons I stated before [generally the poor are lazy, inept, and wasteful with their money]. now I understand people who are middle class or well off can be put in the poor house and bankruptcy real quick if they hit a medical problem and they don't have the proper coverage or no insurance at all.
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It's good that you recognize that many poor people were at one point middle class, but had a round of bad luck.

However, for people who have always been poor, the causes are even more varied and complex. The qualities you stated (lazy, inept, wasteful with money) will certainly be found among some, but you will also find many others such as:
-destruction of local economies relied upon for generations
-environmental factors related to overpopulation, deforestation, poor management of toxic pollution
-unequal access to education
-unequal access to health care
-wages that do not cover one's expenses (most of the poor in America work full-time - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/19/usa.paulharris)
-racism
-inadequate representation in government (lack of democracy)
-mental illness
-crime
-war

I urge you to reconsider your simple point of view on poverty. There is some truth to what you say, but there is so much more to the story.

Here are a few links that might interest you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States
http://www.poverty.com/
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty.html
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

yes poverty is a complex issue as some people have made whole careers out of studying it. I think the biggest problem with poverty in america is people have kids too young, buying things they don't need, and not investing in their education. I've seen people buy a brand new ford f350 dual double cab with all the bells and whistles, while renting a home going out two, three nights a week, not spending any money on education then doing all of that on borrowed money when they should just keep their nose to the grind stone. I've meet people who grew up with out running water or electricity for a large portion of their life and how did they better themselves? they joined the military. I say the army enlisted is for the poor, stupid, ignorant, or anybody trying to get a leg up. it is kind of sad people have to put their lives and life on the line to get a head.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

The people you speak of. . .are just ignorant, immature fools.

Nothing any of us can do to rid the world of such individuals. Allow them to fail on their own while we watch them flounder.

As far as Army Enlisted being for the poor, stupid, ignorant or anybody trying to get a leg up. . .well. . .now you're showing your ignorance. While I will concede that yes a certain large percentage of Army enlisted members come from low-income families, are perhaps ignorant, they very well may be trying to get a leg up in the fact that it'll be a better QOL in the military than in their projects or trailer park. So be it. . .but there are easily 10 excellent enlisted service members who come from middle-class families who hold a strong sense of pride in their patriotism who are not ignorant, poor, stupid, or trying to get a leg up. But whatever. . .you've pretty much shot any hope of being able to provide any sort of meaningful contributions to this thread (IMHO) by displaying this extreme lack of tact.

That is all. Bed time.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Surreal, the dude can't even use proper sentence structures yet he's trying to convince us that he's better than "the poor."

I kind of get where he's coming from though. All those poor people have caused so many of this country's problems. Things like war profiteering, pollution, shipping jobs out of the country. I really hate those poor people. Every time I fly over a trailer park or a monster truck rally I wish I had a bomb to drop on those d-bags.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

flyinguitar said:
It's good that you recognize that many poor people were at one point middle class, but had a round of bad luck.

However, for people who have always been poor, the causes are even more varied and complex. The qualities you stated (lazy, inept, wasteful with money) will certainly be found among some, but you will also find many others such as:...
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Great post! I'm glad someone took the time to explain the flaws in his logic and provide links for additional info. I wasn't sure if anyone else would realize how ridiculous his statements were when I first attempted to point it out.

Only thing I feel like adding is that most people spend their whole lives in the social class they were born into. I don't pretend to know the complex causes of poverty, but I do know that people born wealthy stay wealthy, people born into middle class stay middle class, and people born poor usually stay poor (obviously there are some exceptions). For whatever reason, the poorer you are to start with, the harder it is to get out of poverty.

Poverty has far more to do with how our economy tends to keep people in the same social class than with the supposed laziness, ineptness, or wasteful spending habits of poor people.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

As an outsider looking in......................................

I am a fireman. A Paid fireman. There are volunteer firemen too. Thats part of our problem (from a union perspective) when it comes to pay and benefits.

You see--when there are people willing to do your job for free--a LOT of people willing to do your job for free--your pay suffers because the supply of "cheap" labor outsizes the more expensive paid labor. (Nothing against my volly brothers--it's just a fact that we live with). It doesn't matter that paid districts provide insurance benefits--local communites see the lack of a payroll as a cost savings which offsets the higher insurance premiums.

That's part of what I am seeing in the flying biz. There seems to be a huge number of people willing to get into an airline job for peanuts. I think that affects the pay for you guys. It's a matter of supply and demand. If everyone can do a job and the supply is inexhaustable, why on earth would management pay better? So turnover gets high--what they're saving on salaries more than apparently makes up for any losses of training investment. (Especially when they are making you take Jet courses to "weed out" undesirables).

Another thing I see from outside looking in--you guys are the most unorganized organized labor force I have ever seen. Pick your forum, here APC or others--pilot group a bashes pilot group b which hates pilot group c and it seems like you all are so busy arguing over "LUV buys the atc guys pizza so they get preferential treatment" or "Mesa guys are not riding my jumpseat" that your pilot groups can't get together and do something about your wages.

It seems to me that the management groups are not only winning--they may have already won since there is far more regional jets "clogging" the skies than mainline and they have you guys (your different pilot groups) fighting amongst yourselves over some real doozie arguments.

Until you guys organize--like you did in history back (Yes I read flying the line 1 and 2) there is very little chance of EVER seeing pay and benefits where they should be. As a "civilian" who flies the airlines more than regularly, I agree with you guys--you should be paid more and the standard should be higher. I personally think the Airline "Apocalyse" is coming soon. I think the market will be so flooded with applicants from "disposable" airlines that Firebird is correct--you should plan for a long stay in the Regionals-whatever forms they mutate into.

I say again--Until you guys bury the hatchet on stupid little things (the battles) get your pilot groups together on an agenda that will agree to you all--you will never have the power to win the war.

But that's me--Jim the GA pilot seeing things from the outside and sighing at the loss of a once proud and noble profession.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

b3181981 said:
hey joined the military. I say the army enlisted is for the poor, stupid, ignorant, or anybody trying to get a leg up. it is kind of sad people have to put their lives and life on the line to get a head.
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I need to get me some popcorn, cause this one might be good. Too bad Lloyd hasn't read this yet. Might be a tactical strike coming on.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

That's part of what I am seeing in the flying biz. There seems to be a huge number of people willing to get into an airline job for peanuts. I think that affects the pay for you guys. It's a matter of supply and demand. If everyone can do a job and the supply is inexhaustable, why on earth would management pay better? So turnover gets high--what they're saving on salaries more than apparently makes up for any losses of training investment. (Especially when they are making you take Jet courses to "weed out" undesirables).'
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We are our own worse enemies. No other way to put it. And the companies know it too. We pilots as a highly trained and skilled work force accepted these conditions when we were hired. I'm not saying that we were wrong for taking the job, but we are perpetuating the situation and continuing the cycle. As others have mentioned we keep showing up to the game, hence management knows this and won't raise pay...

The luster of flying for regional goes away quick when you go to order your "value-meal" at McDees in the airport and realize hour per dollar that the kid behind the counter makes more than you. And they get to sleep in their own bed every night to boot! :(
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

As yet another outsider looking in, I have a suggestion...

ALPA (for that matter - ALL of the pilot labor groups) need to go on a MASSIVE marketing blitz.

I talk to a lot of my fellow business travelers. Many of them have zero clue that they're a) flying on a regional jet b) that the crew's QoL/Pay are what they are and c) are generally shocked when I tell them what the crews are generally paid for the schedules they work, even beyond first-year pay. I've been a heavy frequent flyer for 15 years, but I only learned about this stuff since coming to JC almost two years ago.

To the man, they have all said, (and I'm paraphrasing) "Wow, that sucks! I don't want a pilot paid so little flying me and my family!"

There, I think, is your weapon. People are conditioned to believe that you guys are overpaid button-pushers who jet off to Paris on the weekends and shack up with 3 FAs at a time on your overnights.

But get the people paying the bills on your side, and management is going to pay more attention (and, potentially, money) if the public realizes the state of y'all's situation. They simply do not know, and they need to.

At the very least, it might garner you some public support the next time you have to hit the picket line.

Might even cut down on the SJS a bit. :) Could also contribute to FAA revisions to raise the minimums for 121 flying as well.

Just my .02 as a very regular customer of the services you guys provide. Matter of fact, I'm writing this in an airport right now. :)
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

killbilly said:
As yet another outsider looking in, I have a suggestion...

ALPA (for that matter - ALL of the pilot labor groups) need to go on a MASSIVE marketing blitz.

I talk to a lot of my fellow business travelers. Many of them have zero clue that they're a) flying on a regional jet b) that the crew's QoL/Pay are what they are and c) are generally shocked when I tell them what the crews are generally paid for the schedules they work, even beyond first-year pay. I've been a heavy frequent flyer for 15 years, but I only learned about this stuff since coming to JC almost two years ago.

To the man, they have all said, (and I'm paraphrasing) "Wow, that sucks! I don't want a pilot paid so little flying me and my family!"

There, I think, is your weapon. People are conditioned to believe that you guys are overpaid button-pushers who jet off to Paris on the weekends and shack up with 3 FAs at a time on your overnights.

But get the people paying the bills on your side, and management is going to pay more attention (and, potentially, money) if the public realizes the state of y'all's situation. They simply do not know, and they need to.

At the very least, it might garner you some public support the next time you have to hit the picket line.

Might even cut down on the SJS a bit. :) Could also contribute to FAA revisions to raise the minimums for 121 flying as well.

Just my .02 as a very regular customer of the services you guys provide. Matter of fact, I'm writing this in an airport right now. :)
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>>MAJOR APPLAUSE<<

I agree wholeheartedly, sir. Getting the word out is priority one. Rally the masses and build an army.

So.. then... now what? :confused:
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

I agree fear is a great attention getter. We have to follow it up with something else though. The only thing that I think is going to work is moving towards solidarity as a pilot group. Regardless of which airline we're at

Unfortunately I don't see this happening soon. Just by observing the pilots over here at Colgan with the ALPA vs Teamsters. The majority of the people I talk to who are against ALPA say it's because they don't want to be the same union as the Pinnacle Pilots. We have to work together, regional vs regional and regional vs major. Or we're going to keep failing together.
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

greaper007 said:
I agree fear is a great attention getter. We have to follow it up with something else though. The only thing that I think is going to work is moving towards solidarity as a pilot group. Regardless of which airline we're at

Unfortunately I don't see this happening soon. Just by observing the pilots over here at Colgan with the ALPA vs Teamsters. The majority of the people I talk to who are against ALPA say it's because they don't want to be the same union as the Pinnacle Pilots. We have to work together, regional vs regional and regional vs major. Or we're going to keep failing together.
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Agreed... I'm thinking.. airport billboard campaign.

ie... you know those ads in jetbridges?

Exactly. :)

"The airplane you're about to get on is flown by an aircrew who got only X hours of time off last night. Only X hours were able to be used for sleeping."

"The aircrew working hard for your safety makes an average wage of X dollars per hour" (factor in the "ground time" hours we aren't paid full wage rates for...)

"The flight attendants make even less....."
 
Re: "Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Ca

Don’t expect too much public sympathy in your campaign.

Management has a very good tactical advantage with the flying public. Combined with ever changing fees, lack of service, low employee morale, rotten attitudes, and actions of TSA at security checkpoints has created commercial airline travel something similar to a Gestapo DMV. After going through that do you think the flying public is going to be sympathetic to our plight? F-No! They are going to still try to find the lowest fare online because they want to make sure they are paying the cheapest and not pay one red cent more than the next guy to go through that experience again. Management knows and uses this to whipsaw labor inline to their own means.
Yes the perceptions of all pilots from the flying public are different than reality. I just tell them what they want to hear. One guy asked me how bad are things for us. I told him now I have to fly twice a month to my second home in Oahu to work on the yard and pool because I had to let my house staff go.

Cheap fun but it’s the only fun I can afford… ;)
 
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