Pinnacle to resume classes!!!
- Thread starter kab32283
- Start date
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
I am sure the GIA guys do well also. Maybe we should point all new guys in their direction huh? Interesting enough, the guys in favor of RJ programs either were low timers that did the RJ program or paid to be FO's. Imagine that...
I'll take the piloting skills of a 135'er over a 500 hour wonder any day.
Triple7 said:
Yay!!!
A $500 bonus if you have a RJ program under your belt.
$7,000 RJ course
-$500 bonus
-------------------
$6500 plus interest to repay!!! The ATP guys love you!
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I meant bonuses awarded to the pilot group.
Anyways, its a stupid argument anyways that 99% of people don't care about. Im done.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
I keep hearing how guys with RJ courses do better in ground school. No kidding. Heck, a guy with an RJ course under his belt would probably do better than me in RJ ground school. I'm more concerned with post IOE. A 250 hour pilot has little experience to offer up to his Capt other than when he learned in RJ ground school. A 2000 hour guy with 135 time has a great deal more background to offer up. A 1000 hour CFI has certainly seen more things, and seen them from a different viewpoint, than a 250 JetU guy. Getting to the line is only half the battle. There is no substitute for experience and background brought to the game.
KLB
Well-Known Member
Crew environment, you guys don't countI was talking about single pilot 135 ops.
Man,
Flying in a crew enviroment is way easy. I don't care how you slice it. If you can do it all single pilot, you shouldn't have a problem doing it as a crew. I've done it both ways. Single pilot is way more difficult. It would be more difficult to transtition to single pilot than it would to two crew.
I don't know anyone from AMF that didn't breeze through 121 training at a regional or a major.
KLB
Well-Known Member
AMF trains all pilots to fly the aircraft as a single pilot or in a two crew enviroment. The two crew flying makes life much easier. Especially when things are going wrong. The workload in some of those aircraft can be insane.
anic: Two heads are definitely better than one.
anic: Two heads are definitely better than one.meritflyer
Well-Known Member
Bonuses to the pilot group for guys who have a RJ course and you're on your way back to the PFT days.
Unreal...
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Key point right there. Being out on the line with real live passengers behind you is obviously much different than memorizing limitations and playing in the sim. Thanks for putting it that way Don.
And yes, it is 3am EDT and I am posting from my lovely hotel that I just got to. Ended up with nearly a 9 hour block day along with microbursts, windshear, thunderstorms, ice, non-NOTAMed closures, bad customer service, bad coffee, greasy food, broken airplanes and thankfully an experienced FO to help a brotha' out
Glad my company has kept its minimums and hiring standards high. Can't imagine having a day like this with a 300 hour guy. No offense to those coming up through the ranks, we have all been there and I can say I certainly wasn't ready then. Doubtful too many of you are just yet either. Take your time and build some real experience so your future captains don't have to hold your hand.
Nightflight
New Member
Someone somewhere in this thread asked a question about class dates.
I interviewed with Pinnacle mid June, the day after Delta threatened to cancel their contract.
To my understanding they put everyone who they liked out of that interview date into a pool, and as previously mentioned there were 31 people who had class dates prior to that which got cancelled, and I think Pinnacle is giving them class dates around mid October now.
As for myself because I am listed after those 31 people, they told me to expect a class date come December/late November.
Its just nice to see someone running classes, but until I get a real hard date and I am in Memphis, I will continue flight instructing to bring in the dough, and of course all that "experience" teaching students how to land and take off.
I interviewed with Pinnacle mid June, the day after Delta threatened to cancel their contract.
To my understanding they put everyone who they liked out of that interview date into a pool, and as previously mentioned there were 31 people who had class dates prior to that which got cancelled, and I think Pinnacle is giving them class dates around mid October now.
As for myself because I am listed after those 31 people, they told me to expect a class date come December/late November.
Its just nice to see someone running classes, but until I get a real hard date and I am in Memphis, I will continue flight instructing to bring in the dough, and of course all that "experience" teaching students how to land and take off.
:yeahthat:
Read that a couple times, all of you.
I relate passing ground school like taking a written. If you can study for it does it really demonstrate your skill?
I honestly could care less. Not my segment of the industry and thank god Co-Pilots need 2,000+ hours, and 500 multi before I see them. But I'll tell you this was the deciding factor for me not to jump to the regionals as a street captain. No way in hell I'd put up with having to be crewed with someone who benefited from a business deal between the company and a simulator shop. Yeah I'm sure there are plenty of good guys out there but it only takes one bad crew to eff up and be a statistic. I sleep a little better at night knowing that when I close that door up I have at least 5,500 hours of time making critical and life depending decisions. If you can sleep well with a fraction of that time so be it.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Just from my own personal experience at Mesaba with 135'ers vs "RJ course" on the Saab 340:
135'er - worked very hard at class and did very well but he's old (same age as me, 27, soon we are gonna get senior citizen discounts together) and it took extra study time for everything to sink in (just like me). He was slow on first couple sims because he was used to a Baron/Navajo and regularly beat himself up for not being on top of his crew communication. Passed just fine.
"RJ Course" guys - Very cocky, everything sunk in very quickly and they spent most of their time at the hotel watching You Tube video's. They actually did a little poorer than the class average on the Saab systems test but only because they handed it in early and didn't check stupid mistakes on their test. Both of them looked like a truck hit them after every Sim session I say, but passed fine. Got lots of funny stories about them from their Sim partners.
Got to fly with each of them months after the class. Hands down, the 135'er was a better pilot and resource than the 250 hour wonders.
135'er - worked very hard at class and did very well but he's old (same age as me, 27, soon we are gonna get senior citizen discounts together
) and it took extra study time for everything to sink in (just like me). He was slow on first couple sims because he was used to a Baron/Navajo and regularly beat himself up for not being on top of his crew communication. Passed just fine."RJ Course" guys - Very cocky, everything sunk in very quickly and they spent most of their time at the hotel watching You Tube video's. They actually did a little poorer than the class average on the Saab systems test but only because they handed it in early and didn't check stupid mistakes on their test. Both of them looked like a truck hit them after every Sim session I say, but passed fine. Got lots of funny stories about them from their Sim partners.
Got to fly with each of them months after the class. Hands down, the 135'er was a better pilot and resource than the 250 hour wonders.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I'll jump in here to add one more thing. You guys are completely right about the experience thing. The more the better.
I believe the course was created for two reason
1. To help pilots adapt to a crew environment
2. The big one, to ease the transition from a six pack panel to highly automated glass panel cockpit.
I don't care how much experience you have, #2 is going to be tough if you hadn't seen that stuff before. The top reason for training failures is that some pilots never get the automation and/or they never figured out the glass panel scan.
Some pilots just need a lot more time to get adjusted to the automation. Doesn't mean they don't deserve to be airline pilots, just means they need more practice to make the transition.
I've heard some highly experienced ATR captains and FOs have struggled in the transition over to the RJ, some NOT making it. The creation of the RJ and the glass cockpit has caused training departments to get very creative on how they teach this stuff. Here at ASA we now have LCD "paper tigers" that are touch screen and you can actually move knobs and switches during your flow.
Nowadays you have to take a 3 day course to checkout in a G1000 172. There is no substitute for experience, but when it comes to this highly automated stuff, some people just need a headstart.
I believe the course was created for two reason
1. To help pilots adapt to a crew environment
2. The big one, to ease the transition from a six pack panel to highly automated glass panel cockpit.
I don't care how much experience you have, #2 is going to be tough if you hadn't seen that stuff before. The top reason for training failures is that some pilots never get the automation and/or they never figured out the glass panel scan.
Some pilots just need a lot more time to get adjusted to the automation. Doesn't mean they don't deserve to be airline pilots, just means they need more practice to make the transition.
I've heard some highly experienced ATR captains and FOs have struggled in the transition over to the RJ, some NOT making it. The creation of the RJ and the glass cockpit has caused training departments to get very creative on how they teach this stuff. Here at ASA we now have LCD "paper tigers" that are touch screen and you can actually move knobs and switches during your flow.
Nowadays you have to take a 3 day course to checkout in a G1000 172. There is no substitute for experience, but when it comes to this highly automated stuff, some people just need a headstart.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I was gonna say, I got through initial ground on my jet just fine without any jet course. To be quite frank, initial was a complete joke when compared to a good 135 training program. You want a real training program? Go to Amflight or Airnet and you'll see a real training program, with a real washout rate, and real flying. If you can hack that, you can hack a jet no problem.
The rest of the story, though, is looking at WHY the bar was set so low in initial. They were gearing it towards 600 hour CFI's that came out of a Seminole, and that's simply not where I was. So to me, the standard was low, but to most the guys in class, the standard was set to an attainable level so that they could progress through the program and then get into the jet safely. I thought they could have made the program a heck of a lot harder, but that wasn't the aim of the program.
Kinda depends on where you come from, I think.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I think you make a lot of good points but its shocking to me how much reliance there is on the automated stuff even in the Saab by pilots I fly with.
Wanna know how I deal with getting adjusted to automation? While the FO is trying to get the FMS to do what center wants its not uncommon for me to say something like "Tell ya what center, how about radar vectors until we are able to plug this in" or if they give me the outer marker "Hey center, we'll just track direct the NDB and we'll go direct the fix when able". I have no trouble with computers nor the glorified calculator my generation FMS is, but I don't think twice about switching to HDG mode and tracking a navaid. You would think a NDB approach was magic these days, nevermind when the FO can't get the autopilot to do what he wants during a visual and I have to say, "Ya know, it's OK to turn George off."
That is a long way of saying if the RJ's don't want those ATR guys they are welcome onboard my ship.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Glad to know you've got all the stats on what causes washouts.
I washed out more guys because they couldn't handle steam gauges and didn't know how to fly WITHOUT a GPS than anything else, but then again I was teaching with 1960's technology in a wizz bang kinda world.
If you have the basic fundamentals of stick and rudder, and instrument flying down then the glass in a jet is no big deal. All you're doing is adapting how you get your information.
If you can't do without a leg up, you're a sub par pilot in my mind. Is it going to be easy? Who knows. Will you like it? I can tell you I hate glass, and think there are a lot of negatives to it, but I can still get my job done without any violations.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Word to big bird, holmes.
I always fly with one, sometimes two bearing pointers up and they're invaluable. Being able to track a radial on the fly using an RMI will get things moving along real nice when ATC gives you something that you're not expecting. Heck I had to do it out of De-troit a few months ago when they told us to intercept some radial and the captain said, "Huh? The what? Hold on let me plug it in the box."
I already had the nav air dialed in, so I turned on a pointer and WHAMMO! We're tracking outbound in less than 5 seconds while the skipper tosses it in the box for me.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Lol, thank God. You are welcome aboard any day as well.
*on knees* Lord send me pilots with no GPS experience.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
:laff:. That is good one.
Always wonder how did pilots survive before GPS invention?
Ahh, you must learn how to cheat! "Hey center we need radar vectors till able direct."