GoJet Airlines

[aloft]

My point is this. GoJet management tried to undermine the TSA pilots. Why would you want to work for THAT management team? I don't get it. ...... Not all Airlines treat their employees like dirt.

Not all labor groups flat-out refuse to negotiate, either.

 

[Alchemy]

Unfortunately, that's not how it works in the real world, and one simply cannot look at it only from the pilot perspective. If your employees REFUSE to do the work--and three times should amount to a refusal--you're damn right you start up a new company. Companies like United only come knocking once, and labor doesn't get to make the decision on whether a company will take the work or not.

Like I said, there is ample industry precedent for "same pay for same type". Look at the 737 series--how much does capacity differ between the -200 and the -700/800? Moreover, I can't think of an airline where pilots' pay is adjusted--up or down--when the company decides to add or remove rows by changing seat pitch!

Btw, I very seriously doubt that starting GoJet was not undertaken without serious forethought. It's an expensive venture starting up an airline.

It does work that way in the real world if you have strong scope, and unfortunately the TSA pilots didn't so they got burned. United would've come knocking again. They certainly weren't going to give the frames to Mesa. PSA was offered a similair deal, and they too declined flying larger airframes without increased compensation. It reamins to be seen what Airways is going to do.

Look, ideally I'd be all for flying all frames for one rate, assuming it was a true blend of the industry standard across all type operated (ala UPS). However, you can be sure that when smaller aircraft become fashionable again, airlines will expect their pilots to fly those for less than the larger aircraft already on property. Look at the scales for the ERJ's....at Eagle, Republic, and Expressjet you have different scales for the 135/140/145, and in most cases the 135's and 140's were added after the inital 145's.

Also, some airlines, for instance continental, do have different payscales for the different sized 737's. Being paid by aircraft size makes sense (larger plane = more revenue for the company = greater % going to the pilots), but more importantly it's the way airline compensation is historically set up. Pilots are justified in demanding to remain in that paradigm, espcially at the regional level where compensation is rather modest to begin with.

The bottom line that gojet pilots are tantamount to traitors in the world of regional airline pilots, and will continue to be seen that way for the forseeable future. Their willingness to undermine the TSA pilot group resulted in the loss of thousands of dollars (annually per pilot) that TSA pilots might've been able to earn under an agreement to fly the 70 seat aircraft, not to mention the hinderance to their career progression. I would highly reccomend that any candidates for regional airline jobs NOT consider working there.

 

[SteveC]

Don't you have some boxes to fly around?

[Disinterested observer mode]

Completely unnecessary personal shot that adds nothing to the conversation.

[/dom]

 

[WalterSobchak]

I did a little more research on GoJet. Here's what I found:

• Company was created to get around AA scope on 70 seat jets, not in TSA pilot contract
• TSA pilots had first crack at the flying, and turned it down not once, but THREE times due to company's unwillingness to pay more for flying more seats (unlike oh, SkyWest, whose pilots are paid the same rate for the 200/700/900, if I'm not mistaken. We've discussed elsewhere the "same pay for same type" deal, particularly when we're talking only 25-40 additional seats; most majors pay the same rate for all 737s, or all 767s, regardless of the number of seats)
• Current contract is pretty much industry-standard in terms of work rules. It's not the best in the industry, nor is it the worst.
• They weren't union to begin with, but when a new company is created, it's not management's responsibility to install a union. But just as one would expect, the pilots organized shortly thereafter and now have union representation and a contract achieved through collective bargaining. They're not ALPA, but so what.

Seems to me people are a little quick to pound their chests with their fists and shout "scab!", instead of doing a little research. Did the GoJet guys screw the TSA guys? YES!, the TSA guys screwed themselves.By saying NO to more work for the same pay. Are the GoJet guys profiting at the TSA guys' expense?Yes. Again, the TSA guys had first crack at what was growth flying and turned it down. GoJet did steal flying from TSA.

So, if after reading all that, and doing your own independent verification, you still insist on calling GoJet pilots "scabs", you're either an idiot or don't actually understand what a "scab" is

I just might apply there myself.

So the 900 CA's should make the same as I do as a Saab CA? It only has 36 more seats. Why would they be pissed about that? Doesn't every body want to make the same pay to do more work?

Or Maybe every one else doesn't have shiny jet syndrom and isn't willing to sell there soul so they can tell there friends they fly the 700 'dude'.

Coincidently the TSA contract was under negotiations when GoJet was started. Makes me wonder......Hey you don't think Management.......No they wouldn't try to whip saw.......

You had all the correct words there just not emphasized correctly.

 

[BobDDuck]

Aloft, you'd do just fine there. Really.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Unfortunately, that's not how it works in the real world, and one simply cannot look at it only from the pilot perspective. If your employees REFUSE to do the work--and three times should amount to a refusal--you're damn right you start up a new company. Companies like United only come knocking once, and labor doesn't get to make the decision on whether a company will take the work or not.

Like I said, there is ample industry precedent for "same pay for same type". Look at the 737 series--how much does capacity differ between the -200 and the -700/800? Moreover, I can't think of an airline where pilots' pay is adjusted--up or down--when the company decides to add or remove rows by changing seat pitch!

Btw, I very seriously doubt that starting GoJet was not undertaken without serious forethought. It's an expensive venture starting up an airline.

Or a completely different type of aircraft TSA doesn't have mighty 200's.

I can't think of an airline where pilots' pay is adjusted--up or down--when the company decides to add or remove rows by changing seat pitch!

I can think of a few......
ASA
ComAir
Republic
SkyWest
American Eagle
Mesaba
Horizon
Express Jet
Mesa
Piedmont
Pen Air
Island Air
Colgan
CommutAir
Great Lakes
Gulfstream

Ones that did or only have one type currently
Air Wisconsin
Compass
TSA
Pinnacle*

Jets should be at regionals to begin with. Let alone allowing management to move mainline flying for the price of 50 seat RJ flying. Lets make all jobs worse and the same for all. Communism? Perhaps. If you can't understand this concept I have to ask who's management team are you on?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I did a little more research on GoJet. Here's what I found:

Might want to do a little more research. Your information isn't accurate. Here's the truth:

Company was created to get around AA scope on 70 seat jets, not TSA pilot contract

Not true. All that was required to get around the APA scope clause was a separate operating certificate. As you see at RAH, it's very easy to operate several operating certificates as a single seniority list. Instead, Hulas and his minions decided to create a completely different airline with a non-union seniority list in order to do an end-run around the TSA contract. This was all about circumventing the ALPA agreement. The APA scope clause was not an issue.

TSA pilots had first crack at the flying, and turned it down not once, but THREE times due to company's unwillingness to pay more for flying more seats

Why shouldn't the pilots demand more money for more seats? That is the industry standard, after all. Personally, I believe the TSA MEC made a mistake in not taking the deal, because it would have ended the whipsaw, but I don't blame the TSA pilots for demanding more and not caving. It's not the decision I would have made, but it's a decision that I can respect.

most majors pay the same rate for all 737s

Some do, some don't. At AirTran, we have a higher rate on the books for -800s and -900s. Management hates it and tried to force through a TA that included a single rate, and that's one of the reasons that we voted down that TA.

Current contract is pretty much industry-standard in terms of work rules. It's not the best in the industry, nor is it the worst.

It's actually very near the bottom when you figure the work rules and lack of soft pay. That's to be expected when you have a fake union.

They weren't union to begin with, but when a new company is created, it's not management's responsibility to install a union. But just as one would expect, the pilots organized shortly thereafter and now have union representation and a contract achieved through collective bargaining.

As others have pointed out, this union wasn't installed by the regular line pilots. The IBT drive took place when Hulas had all of his management pilots flying for GoJet, before he started the off-the-street hiring. These were all guys that crossed from TSA that were company men. They voted in the obscure branch of the IBT just to get a union on the property to keep ALPA from ever coming on board. The usual IBT airline division, Local 747, disavows any association with the GoJet pilots. This is a sham union with no real power. They are puppets of management.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Aloft, I'll put it in terms you can understand.

If some one was going to charge you Baron rate to fly a 172 and said "they both have wings" you would be upset wouldn't you? You might just say no I don't think Ill take that and I wont fly here.

 

[Airdale]

Uh didn't you work for Colgan???
Oh but now that you moved on to bigger and greater things such as ANOTHER regional you think you can call people out.
Please

When I went to work for Colgan, the purchase was just announced and the ALPA drive was moving full force. It was still a good company to work for. Just ask those that have been there for over 2 years. Things went to hell in a hand basket, PCL managment started to impose their rule and I left. I'd rather not work for management like that. Your point? I'm hardly calling anybody "out".

 

[Ian_J]

When I went to work for Colgan, the purchase was just announced and the ALPA drive was moving full force. It was still a good company to work for. Just ask those that have been there for over 2 years. Things went to hell in a hand basket, PCL managment started to impose their rule and I left. I'd rather not work for management like that. Your point? I'm hardly calling anybody "out".

Why are you asking Don if he's got boxes to go fly around?

 

[mikecweb]

When I went to work for Colgan, the purchase was just announced and the ALPA drive was moving full force. It was still a good company to work for. Just ask those that have been there for over 2 years. Things went to hell in a hand basket, PCL managment started to impose their rule and I left. I'd rather not work for management like that. Your point? I'm hardly calling anybody "out".

My point? You went to work for an airline with crappy work rules and no union yet you come on here and put down those that make the same decision because some how you've seen the light all the sudden.
Furthermore you call out a UPS Captain for.....some reason....

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Unfortunately, that's not how it works in the real world, and one simply cannot look at it only from the pilot perspective. If your employees REFUSE to do the work--and three times should amount to a refusal--you're damn right you start up a new company. Companies like United only come knocking once, and labor doesn't get to make the decision on whether a company will take the work or not.

WTF!!!

Matt, they don't have seperate crew rooms and parking lots for nothing!

Furthermore, if they're so proud of their company and decision to work there, why do they typically go to great lengths to hide who they work for?

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Some do, some don't. At AirTran, we have a higher rate on the books for -800s and -900s. Management hates it and tried to force through a TA that included a single rate, and that's one of the reasons that we voted down that TA.

You guys are getting 800 & 900's?

Hopefully 900ER's!

 

[Tram]

I just might apply there myself.

That'd make you par for the course, I'd think...

 

[aloft]

Or a completely different type of aircraft TSA doesn't have mighty 200's.

Neither does GoJet.

I can think of a few......
ASA
ComAir
Republic
SkyWest
American Eagle
Mesaba
Horizon
Express Jet
Mesa
Piedmont
Pen Air
Island Air
Colgan
CommutAir
Great Lakes
Gulfstream

Ones that did or only have one type currently
Air Wisconsin
Compass
TSA
Pinnacle*

Might want to think again, because you're factually incorrect.

Jets should be at regionals to begin with. Let alone allowing management to move mainline flying for the price of 50 seat RJ flying. Lets make all jobs worse and the same for all. Communism? Perhaps. If you can't understand this concept I have to ask who's management team are you on?

A man meets a woman in a bar and asks if she'll have sex with him in exchange for one million dollars.

"Sure!", she exclaims.

"How about fifty dollars?", he asks.

"No way! What do you think I am, a prostitute?", she cries.

"We've already established that, madam; now we're simply negotiating price".

Which is to say, all flying done under a brand should be done by pilots on that brand's seniority list, period. Anything else is outsourcing and undercutting the profession, PERIOD. EVERY regional pilot has undercut the profession by accepting far less than what mainline pilots would fly the same equipment. Claiming some sort of righteousness when you've already wh0red yourself out is simply hypocritical. (Is this really your idea of 'integrity', Matthew????)

The bottom line that gojet pilots are tantamount to traitors in the world of regional airline pilots, and will continue to be seen that way for the forseeable future.

Pot calls kettle black, film at eleven.

The bottom line is that when a labor group flat-out refuses to do something, that work is gonna get outsourced. It happens in every segment of unionized industry. EVERY one. Mainline pilots weren't interested in flying 50-seat jets, so they were outsourced. By that definition, and by yours, EVERY regional pilot group are "tantamount to traitors to the world of...airline pilots".

You can't have your cake and eat it too, kids.

Their willingness to undermine the TSA pilot group resulted in the loss of thousands of dollars (annually per pilot) that TSA pilots might've been able to earn under an agreement to fly the 70 seat aircraft, not to mention the hinderance to their career progression. I would highly reccomend that any candidates for regional airline jobs NOT consider working there.

Yeah? YOUR willingness to undermine all mainline pilot groups has resulted in the loss of thousands of dollars (annually per pilot) that mainline pilots might've been able to earn under an agreement to fly the 70 seat aircraft, not to mention the hinderance to their career progression. [Insert something witty about honor among thieves, virtue among prostitutes, rank among lieutenants, etc.]

If a company wants a widget of x specifications in y quantity at a price not greater than z, you're going to deliver it or you're not going to get the contract. Given United's financial situation at the time, it's a virtual certainty that they came to TSA and said "fly these 700s at this rate and you get the business, take it or leave it." If the pilot group refuses to accept rates that make the proposition work, then the company's not gonna get the business and everyone loses.

I can guarantee you that TSA's management beat their heads against the wall trying to find a way NOT to have to spend $$$$ duplicating all the overhead a second carrier necessitated by the TSA pilot group's refusal to negotiate (and let's be honest with ourselves: if you can't find an acceptable middle ground after three rounds of negotiation, you deserve what you get; we're talking only few thousand dollars per year here.) It's reasonable to assume that had the TSA pilots accepted the CRJ flying at the same rate they're getting for their ERJ flying, the rate would've eventually gone up, just as it did for GoJet. If you can't understand that, PLEASE, never volunteer to sit on your MEC's negotiating committee.

Seriously, there's a whole lot of dudes in this industry quick to judge, without getting a true understanding of the facts. I'm not faulting anyone, because it's simply well-studied human nature to do so. However, as professionals, it behooves us to overcome our nature and consider ALL the facts, not just the ones we agree with. As this pertains to GoJet, it's obvious that people have chosen to fixate on certain facts while ignoring others and leap to erroneous conclusions. WMDs in Iraq, anyone?

Wisdom is learning to choose one's battles carefully. Instead of conceding defeat in this one battle, the TSA pilots dug in their heels and ended up losing the war over it. Long story short, TSA's pilots shot themselves in the foot, and I've really no sympathy for self-inflicted wounds. Believe me, I understand brinkmanship, and I also know there's a time to cut your losses and negotiate in good faith for the benefit of ALL concerned.

 

[n77j]

Pardon my ignorance- but what difference does it make whether you work for GOJets or Pinnacle or for that matter, many of the Regional carriers out there. They all stink as far pay and benefits are concerned. Personally, all Regional airlines are nothing but a trainning ground for the Majors. So, use them to get your hours and experience and jump into the Majors with a union!

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

...that's it aloft, you're no longer welcome in my cars passenger seat when you need a ride to work!

 

[Tram]

So, use them to get your hours and experience and jump into the Majors with a union!

Yup.. That's all anyone does at the Regionals... We get our magical 1000 hours PIC and the second your pen inks that lovely sheet of Jeppesen Pro Log Book paper, your phone circuits overload with calls from majors faarrrr and widddeeee...

Man, it's a great day!

 

[SteveC]

<snip>

Which is to say, all flying done under a brand should be done by pilots on that brand's seniority list, period. Anything else is outsourcing and undercutting the profession, PERIOD. EVERY regional pilot has undercut the profession by accepting far less than what mainline pilots would fly the same equipment.

<snip>

The bottom line is that when a labor group flat-out refuses to do something, that work is gonna get outsourced. It happens in every segment of unionized industry. EVERY one. Mainline pilots weren't interested in flying 50-seat jets, so they were outsourced. By that definition, and by yours, EVERY regional pilot group are "tantamount to traitors to the world of...airline pilots".

<snip>

If a company wants a widget of x specifications in y quantity at a price not greater than z, you're going to deliver it or you're not going to get the contract. Given United's financial situation at the time, it's a virtual certainty that they came to TSA and said "fly these 700s at this rate and you get the business, take it or leave it." If the pilot group refuses to accept rates that make the proposition work, then the company's not gonna get the business and everyone loses.

I can guarantee you that TSA's management beat their heads against the wall trying to find a way NOT to have to spend $$$$ duplicating all the overhead a second carrier necessitated by the TSA pilot group's refusal to negotiate (and let's be honest with ourselves: if you can't find an acceptable middle ground after three rounds of negotiation, you deserve what you get; we're talking only few thousand dollars per year here.) It's reasonable to assume that had the TSA pilots accepted the CRJ flying at the same rate they're getting for their ERJ flying, the rate would've eventually gone up, just as it did for GoJet. If you can't understand that, PLEASE, never volunteer to sit on your MEC's negotiating committee.

Seriously, there's a whole lot of dudes in this industry quick to judge, without getting a true understanding of the facts. I'm not faulting anyone, because it's simply well-studied human nature to do so. However, as professionals, it behooves us to overcome our nature and consider ALL the facts, not just the ones we agree with. As this pertains to GoJet, it's obvious that people have chosen to fixate on certain facts while ignoring others and leap to erroneous conclusions. WMDs in Iraq, anyone?

Wisdom is learning to choose one's battles carefully. Instead of conceding defeat in this one battle, the TSA pilots dug in their heels and ended up losing the war over it. Long story short, TSA's pilots shot themselves in the foot, and I've really no sympathy for self-inflicted wounds. Believe me, I understand brinkmanship, and I also know there's a time to cut your losses and negotiate in good faith for the benefit of ALL concerned.

Matt, I'm not *into* airlines like many pilots here, so I may not study the details like they do, but I do try to understand the big picture. I can't speak to the details of the GoJet/TSA discussion going on, but I will say that I agree with many points that you are making regarding the overall picture of airline flying today with respect to regional and mainline carriers. If we took the airline names out of your post and said the same thing in a generic manner I would probably give you a big old :yeahthat:

I'm sure it won't be a popular position though.

 

[BobDDuck]

Steve, the position Aloft is taking (and you are agreeing with) is right... if you are only thinking about yourself. Fortunately, many people try to see bigger picture and improve things for others as well as themselves.