Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
...you wouldn't buy a new car or a house (or any major purchase) without doing the research.
Why should a job, no the start of your professional career be any different?
GoJet Airlines
- Thread starter Airdale
- Start date
...you wouldn't buy a new car or a house (or any major purchase) without doing the research.
Why should a job, no the start of your professional career be any different?
Berkut
Well-Known Member
I believe it's possible (even likely) to conduct a reasonable amount of research and not come to the conclusion that it's "wrong" to work for GoJets. It not as if it's the obvious wrong thing to do. Like Airdale said, there are mixed opinions even among people in the industry.
Sure, he would find a lot of people with a beef against GoJets, but what airline doesn't have that? What would lead a new guy to think that it was somehow more honorable to go to Great Lakes with their lousy pay, or Skywest with no union?
Sure, he would find a lot of people with a beef against GoJets, but what airline doesn't have that? What would lead a new guy to think that it was somehow more honorable to go to Great Lakes with their lousy pay, or Skywest with no union?
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
Not one person in this thread has called anybody a name here...what's being discussed is pilots that work for GoJets, which is nobody here. It's been nothing but civil.
skydog
New Member
GoJet airlines was created by the same person who run Trans States Airlines: Hulas Kanodia. At the time, Trans States was unionized under ALPA, while GoJets was non-union. While it is operated under a separate certificate, it shares the same key management people with Trans States. Some say that it was started in order to circumvent the provisions of the Trans States ALPA contract, while others will it was started because contractual issues prevented the Trans States side to bid on new business that United was offering.
When it was formed, some pilots employed by Trans States "crossed over" in search of better pay, bigger jets, more seniority, who knows what. The Trans States pilots took exception to that, feeling that they were being undermined by those who crossed over.
ALPA considers GoJets to be an alter ego carrier created solely for the purpose of circumventing the ALPA contract in effect at Trans States.
I can understand, and to a certain extent, agree with their complaints about the guys who crossed over. What I don't understand is anger and resentment directed at off-the-street pilots who hired into a union carrier that pays as much as, if not more than, other 70 seat jet operators.
Now, consider Pinnacle and Colgan airlines. We have the exact same thing going on there, with the single exception that Colgan was acquired as opposed to started. Yet you don't see the anger and bitterness directed at new hire Colgan pilots. This suggests to me that ALPA is more concerned with non-ALPA carriers as opposed to non-union carriers.
When it was formed, some pilots employed by Trans States "crossed over" in search of better pay, bigger jets, more seniority, who knows what. The Trans States pilots took exception to that, feeling that they were being undermined by those who crossed over.
ALPA considers GoJets to be an alter ego carrier created solely for the purpose of circumventing the ALPA contract in effect at Trans States.
I can understand, and to a certain extent, agree with their complaints about the guys who crossed over. What I don't understand is anger and resentment directed at off-the-street pilots who hired into a union carrier that pays as much as, if not more than, other 70 seat jet operators.
Now, consider Pinnacle and Colgan airlines. We have the exact same thing going on there, with the single exception that Colgan was acquired as opposed to started. Yet you don't see the anger and bitterness directed at new hire Colgan pilots. This suggests to me that ALPA is more concerned with non-ALPA carriers as opposed to non-union carriers.
aloft
New Member
Seems to me GoJets a) has a union b) a union-negotiated contract and c) better pay than the airline they were supposedly created to whipsaw against.
So, other than a sketchy origin which largely now amounts to a failed whipsaw by management, I fail to see the beef with GoJets. Going to work for them now is the same as going to work for Freedom post-union.
So, other than a sketchy origin which largely now amounts to a failed whipsaw by management, I fail to see the beef with GoJets. Going to work for them now is the same as going to work for Freedom post-union.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
There union is a joke. It was "voted" in by management pilots before the company started hiring off the street and is run by them as well. Unlike ALPA and the IBT Airline unions, the "union" that represents GoJets has no affiliation to any other airlines. For all intents and purposes it is no better then the Colgan Pilot Group (the organization, not the actual pilots).
The problem with GoJets now is that they continue to undermine the Trans States pilots seniority. It has nothing to do with who has better pay or work rules, but rather the fact that the airline was created (and continues to operate) for the purpose of keeping the airplanes off the TSA certificate and thus preventing ALPA from negotiating rates for then.
Obviously, the worst offenders at GoJets are the old TSA pilots that jumped over there to get a raise in seniority or be able to "fly the big planes". The people that have come afterwards didn't directly screw over their TSA brethren, but they do allow the airline to continue to operate and to continue to do harm to the TSA pilot group.
aloft
New Member
This argument doesn't hold water, either, as you've equally described the unions at AA, UPS, FedEx and probably a few others. A union doesn't have to be associated with ALPA or any other carrier to be valid.
And again, they at least have a union-negotiated contract, while places like SkyWest do not. And nobody but Velocipede is calling to ban SkyWest pilots from jumpseats.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"I don't want this to turn into an APC or flightinfo type thread"
"screw GoJets. To me, it doesn't matter that they are Union now, the entire history the company is enough for me to never want to work there or have respect for those who want to go work there.
My point being, just because a Scab operation becomes unionized, does it raise the reputation of the company? Does it make it OK to go work there?"
Nice job on keeping JC pure and keeping flamebait out of your posts.....
"screw GoJets. To me, it doesn't matter that they are Union now, the entire history the company is enough for me to never want to work there or have respect for those who want to go work there.
My point being, just because a Scab operation becomes unionized, does it raise the reputation of the company? Does it make it OK to go work there?"
Nice job on keeping JC pure and keeping flamebait out of your posts.....
SIUav8er
Narcosis
why does it even matter? if YOU personally dont like a company, great! Dont work for them! But, if lets say, I work for GoJet (which I dont nor do i want to...this is hypothetical) I Wouldnt give a rats ass what you guys think! If thier pay, work rules, etc were worked for me, why would you hate me for working there? Now...if there were some pilots currently flying there, i would listen. But I havent heard anything from anyone that actually works there.
Look, GoJet has a union now and theyre still being bashed by you guys... I dont get it! Does everyone on here hate Colgan like this? They voted down ALPA! But theres a lot of Colgan pilots posting on this Forum...bashing companies like GoJet. Kind of ironic to me.
What i really get a kick out of is kids that arent even flying professionally bash the hell out of companies that im sure they really know nothing about. its rediculous. What was the point of this thread anyway?
Look, GoJet has a union now and theyre still being bashed by you guys... I dont get it! Does everyone on here hate Colgan like this? They voted down ALPA! But theres a lot of Colgan pilots posting on this Forum...bashing companies like GoJet. Kind of ironic to me.
What i really get a kick out of is kids that arent even flying professionally bash the hell out of companies that im sure they really know nothing about. its rediculous. What was the point of this thread anyway?
aloft
New Member
I did a little more research on GoJet. Here's what I found:
So, if after reading all that, and doing your own independent verification, you still insist on calling GoJet pilots "scabs", you're either an idiot or don't actually understand what a "scab" is...or both.
I just might apply there myself.
- Company was created to get around AA scope on 70 seat jets, not TSA pilot contract
- TSA pilots had first crack at the flying, and turned it down not once, but THREE times due to company's unwillingness to pay more for flying more seats (unlike oh, SkyWest, whose pilots are paid the same rate for the 200/700/900, if I'm not mistaken. We've discussed elsewhere the "same pay for same type" deal, particularly when we're talking only 25-40 additional seats; most majors pay the same rate for all 737s, or all 767s, regardless of the number of seats)
- Current contract is pretty much industry-standard in terms of work rules. It's not the best in the industry, nor is it the worst.
- They weren't union to begin with, but when a new company is created, it's not management's responsibility to install a union. But just as one would expect, the pilots organized shortly thereafter and now have union representation and a contract achieved through collective bargaining. They're not ALPA, but so what.
So, if after reading all that, and doing your own independent verification, you still insist on calling GoJet pilots "scabs", you're either an idiot or don't actually understand what a "scab" is...or both.
I just might apply there myself.
SIUav8er
Narcosis
Thats more like it! Thanks for the valid information. Im still in awe of the hatred on JC towards GoJet and their pilots.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Don't you have some boxes to fly around?
My point is this. GoJet management tried to undermine the TSA pilots. Why would you want to work for THAT management team? I don't get it. Pinnacle management screws over there pilots, on both certificates now. Why would you want to work for a management team that refuses to pay attention or care to the needs of their workforce?
For a management team that has a history of refusing to negotiate in good faith with their pilot union?
The more people that go and work for these companies, the more they continue to thrive. Companies like that are a disease. If you continue to feed it, it will continue to spread.
The problem with America today, is employees are a bunch of push-overs. We let management pay us substandard wages that have not kept up with yearly inflation, destroy our retirement pensions, refuse to provide affordable health insurance (refusal to contribute more) all the while they line their pockets. Not all Airlines treat their employees like dirt. So why feed the devil?
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
Right, so instead of negotiating with their own pilots when bringing new equipment on property it's acceptable in your view for a company to simply bring in a new certificate, new pilots, and tell the old pilots to get bent?
TSA pilots demanded more money to fly 70 seat aircraft, which is the logical course of action. In my view, if TSA holdings is not able to reach an agreement with TSA pilots to fly 70 seat aircraft, the company should not be flying them. It's the same thing that the freedom a-listers did at mesa. Anyone who goes there now is equivalent to a freedom a-lister until the seniority lists at TSA holdings are merged (just like the freedom and mesa lists were merged). GoJet is helping to lower the bar in compensation, but the far larger issue here is scope and the gojet pilots' willingness to undermine TSA pilots' ability to retain the flying their own company performs.
Am I going to go out of my way to make a gojet pilots' life miserable no? But I'm certainly not going to do them any favors. GoJet on your resume is like a scarlet letter, and working there has the potential to damage your career far more than any experience in a CRJ700 could help you in my opinion.
This all brings home the point that it's critical for any pilot contract to have strong scope language. Without it your contract is pretty much worthless.
SIUav8er
Narcosis
How could it damage your career? Is it really that much different than working for any other regional when it comes to interviewing at a Legacy/Major carrier? I'm just curious... Do you think HR at another airline will really care more about what company you worked for than what you were flying?
Uh didn't you work for Colgan???
Oh but now that you moved on to bigger and greater things such as ANOTHER regional you think you can call people out.
Please
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
You'd be surprised. Some portion of most interviews usually involve Q&A with a line pilot. Most pilots who are conducting interviews are probably educated and aware of the issues surrounding various regionals.
Let's say your interviewing at your "dream job" and go in for a Q&A with one of their line pilots during the interview. The pilot interviewing you happens to be ex-TSA and your resume says GoJet on it (or TSA holdings with time in CRJ-700 for those that are going to be coy). Guess what your odds of getting through that interview successfully are? Now consider the fact that almost any regional pilot today and many current legacy/major pilots feel the same way about gojet, and you can start to see how it would damage your career.
I get asked about "regional issues" from time to time by "major" pilots when I'm jumpseating, so the awareness is definitely high on the issue of gojet. Personally GoJet is not a risk I would want to take, and I think any pilot with a decent sense of integrity would probably feel the same way.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Teamsters 747 (the group that represents Horizon and RAH) has come out publicly against the GoJet pilots of Local 618. 747 has also written letters to the powers at "big teamsters" to get the union "drive" at GoJet voided. Thats how much credibility the GoJet pilot's union has with in the umbrella of their "union".
Teamsters 618 is a union that represents parking lot agents and gas station attendants. Hardly a union for pilots like Teamsters 747 or 1108 or ALPA.
Teamsters 618 is a union that represents parking lot agents and gas station attendants. Hardly a union for pilots like Teamsters 747 or 1108 or ALPA.
aloft
New Member
Unfortunately, that's not how it works in the real world, and one simply cannot look at it only from the pilot perspective. If your employees REFUSE to do the work--and three times should amount to a refusal--you're damn right you start up a new company. Companies like United only come knocking once, and labor doesn't get to make the decision on whether a company will take the work or not.
Like I said, there is ample industry precedent for "same pay for same type". Look at the 737 series--how much does capacity differ between the -200 and the -700/800? Moreover, I can't think of an airline where pilots' pay is adjusted--up or down--when the company decides to add or remove rows by changing seat pitch!
Btw, I very seriously doubt that starting GoJet was not undertaken without serious forethought. It's an expensive venture starting up an airline.