Don't need a degree eh?

[Velocipede]

YOU will put your military experience up against a college degree, but will an HR department? We're not discussing what YOU think is more valuable, we're talking about the people evaluating you think is more valuable..

The fact of the matter is, at least in the past, HR departments DID value military flight time over civilian flight time. Simply because there was no question about the standardization and quality of military training.

Who knows what kind of training you got at some license mills? And then you may have gotten all your hours flying freight at some loser outfit that taught you to cut corners just to get the job done every night.

Or you dragged tourists up and down the Grand Canyon for a year, flying VFR out of one airport 12 hours a day.

Military training and experience still give you an edge in HR departments, especially ones where actual pilots sit on interview boards.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Dugie got it right, but I didn't take Geometry in college and if you named a side of your triangle Bob in a philosophy course you'd probably get laughed out of class by the professor.

Philosophy uses ######## topics to develop critical thinking skills. Like phenomenology; that's the concept that if you are not there to witness something, it doesn't exist. So if the tree falls in the woods and there is nobody still there to hear it, does it still make a sound? Of course not, the tree isn't even there because if somebody isn't there to witness it into existence, then it doesn't exist. Also, if I were talking to you, and turned around you wouldn't be there anymore. 'Cause I mean let's be honest, if I can't SEE you how do I know that you're there? Now with that in mind, prove it wrong without stating (in the voice of the jerky boys), "Hey there guy, are you retarded or something? The tree's there whether I can see it or not!" It's a lot harder than you might think and this broadens your critical thinking skills.

BS right? Yes and no (I think largely yes), but forcing yourself to wrap your head around these concepts (even when you think they're bogus, which I think many of them are bogus. It's why I spent most my time studying political philosophy I think) forces you to adapt to a new paradigm you didn't think existed before. This changes your critical thinking skills greatly because instead of saying, "We can't lose that bus, it's impossible, I just passed my type ride in this aircraft and THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING" you're forced to look at it and say, "Well, it shouldn't have happened, but it DID happen, so let's figure out a solution to the problem instead of just saying it isn't possible."

I'm not doing my area of study justice, but I'm also kind of preoccupied with trying to restring my guitar.

Sooo.. it teaches you to be a realist rather than a egotist that relies on sophistry and solipsism? Er.. dude. I got that covered...

.. and my referents for the statement I just made are an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation and a Robert Heinlein novel.

Oh.. and a dictionary.

Learning and knowledge can be acquired anywhere and anytime a person is open to the experience. Like the 'Good Will Hunting' argument, mind-broadening experience is open to anybody with a library card.

You don't need a $100,000 college degree for that. All the degree proves, in the end, is that you were able to jump through a successive number of hoops over a given period of time. At the end, there is no real set measure of knowledge and cognitive ability actually received. It depends on the individual's desire to learn and grow.

This belief was actually sounded out at length in Robert Heinlein's novel 'The Number of the Beast'. A man abashedly gives his new bride permission to divorce him at will under any terms of her choosing when he admits to her that his doctorate was in education.

In other words, a diploma just says "We certify that we HAVE in fact lead this horse to water, and he drank!"

It does not, however, mention the quality of the water.. or how much he drank.

 

[jtrain609]

Sooo.. it teaches you to be a realist rather than a egotist that relies on sophistry and solipsism? Er.. dude. I got that covered...

.. and my referents for the statement I just made are an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation and a Robert Heinlein novel.

Oh.. and a dictionary.

Learning and knowledge can be acquired anywhere and anytime a person is open to the experience. Like the 'Good Will Hunting' argument, mind-broadening experience is open to anybody with a library card.

You don't need a $100,000 college degree for that. All the degree proves, in the end, is that you were able to jump through a successive number of hoops over a given period of time. At the end, there is no real set measure of knowledge and cognitive ability actually received. It depends on the individual's desire to learn and grow.

This belief was actually sounded out at length in Robert Heinlein's novel 'The Number of the Beast'. A man abashedly gives his new bride permission to divorce him at will under any terms of her choosing when he admits to her that his doctorate was in education.

In other words, a diploma just says "We certify that we HAVE in fact lead this horse to water, and he drank!"

It does not, however, mention the quality of the water.. or how much he drank.

Erm...I didn't study much Star Trek in college man, but I did read a lot of Descartes and basically yes, you are correct but it's a little bit more involved than you're making it seem. His book, "Meditations on First Philosophy" is jam packed full of a little bit more than the average Star Trek episode. It was just an example, which you seem to want to take a different direction than my original intent, but that's fine I guess. My degree didn't tell me how to think, it taught me how to think about things and examine them myself. My degree isn't a body of knowledge, but instead a body of tools that I use to construct and deconstruct arguments and statements.

Or said another way, I learned my philosophical tools by studying BS, and I use my philosophical tools to argue about political theory or put together electrical systems in my head or any number of other things that I want to apply my learned tools to.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Sooo.. it teaches you to be a realist rather than a egotist that relies on sophistry and solipsism? Er.. dude. I got that covered...

.. and my referents for the statement I just made are an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation and a Robert Heinlein novel.

Oh.. and a dictionary.

Learning and knowledge can be acquired anywhere and anytime a person is open to the experience. Like the 'Good Will Hunting' argument, mind-broadening experience is open to anybody with a library card.

You don't need a $100,000 college degree for that. All the degree proves, in the end, is that you were able to jump through a successive number of hoops over a given period of time. At the end, there is no real set measure of knowledge and cognitive ability actually received. It depends on the individual's desire to learn and grow.

This belief was actually sounded out at length in Robert Heinlein's novel 'The Number of the Beast'. A man abashedly gives his new bride permission to divorce him at will under any terms of her choosing when he admits to her that his doctorate was in education.

In other words, a diploma just says "We certify that we HAVE in fact lead this horse to water, and he drank!"

It does not, however, mention the quality of the water.. or how much he drank.

Excellent post.

 

[aerospacepilot]

To all you new guys; listen up. You are entering a profession of overachievers, people smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.

THESE are the people you are competing with for jobs. Read that word again; competing. You are trying to best these people in order to get the job that BOTH of you want, and in some situations only one of you will get it.

Things are slowing down. Hiring is slowing down, the economy is slowing down and the qualifications to get these jobs WILL go up.

So what are you going to do to combat that and make yourself a more marketable pilot who will get the job instead of me?

What makes YOU more marketable? Folks have GOT to start looking at this stuff and saying, "How can I make myself a better, more marketable pilot" instead of saying, "Oh gee whiz I've gotta teach! Oh no! That's horrible! I just wanna fly a jet! I don't want to do anything more than the minimum amount of work!"

Make yourself more marketable, make yourself stand out, go ABOVE AND BEYOND EVERYBODY ELSE, don't go for the minimum standard, network and make friends and if I haven't said it yet GO TO COLLEGE!

:yeahthat::yeahthat:Jtrain, your post is probably the best post I have ever read on Jetcareers. What a great way to put it!! Pilots are generally smart and educated people. New piltos need to ask themselves, What are you going to do to set yourself apart?

In corporate America, the folks in the HR department are looking for reasons to toss your resume right into the recycle bin. They've got way too many applicants to bring them all in so they want to narrow the candidates down real quick.

And the way you make it easy for them is to not have every single box they wanted checked filled in.

And if it says a certain qualification is "preferred" you better have it. Your resume is going to be in a stack of hundreds. Most of the people applying for the job will have that preferred qualification.

Without it, guess where your resume is going?

:yeahthat:Another great post. Whatever rumors you here about this "pilot shortage," I can absolutely reassure you that THERE IS NO PILOT SHORTAGE AT THE MAJOR LEVEL. There never will be. There cannot be. As long as there are 20,000 pilots flying around at regional airlines, and tens of thousands of other corporate/part 135/freight/CFI's dying for those jobs, there will never be a pilot shortage at major airlines.

Every decent major has thousands of applications, and the majority of those pilots have 4 year college degrees. They get to be selective. If they require or prefer a 4 year college degree, guess which resumes they are going to select?
The thousands of resumes for pilots with 4 year college degrees.

So if you want a decent job in aviation, ask yourself a question:
What are you going to do to combat that and make yourself a more marketable pilot who will get the job instead of me?
Skipping a 4 year college degree is not the way to go.

 

[aerospacepilot]

I always make an effort to answer the Do I need, or Should I get a 4 year college degree questions. I believe getting a 4 year college degree is like needing to get a multi engine rating. If you want to be a major airline pilot, you need to get it.

Getting a 4 year college degree is often the best advice I can ever give. Not just for pilots, but for anyone hoping to have a good future.

I give my best effort to make sure that new pilots know they should get a 4 year college degree. But for those of you who choose to ignore the advice I and literally everyone else on the boards give, I don't worry about it. I know that when my resume goes up against your resume (without a college degree), mine will win everytime (Assuming your resume has not already been tossed in the recycle bin for not having a 4 year college degree).

 

[Tram]

people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you..

:BS-Flag:

Other than that.. Great post..

 

[Tram]

Once you have your seniority number, it doesn't matter.

Unless of course, said place you got your seniority number goes tits up.. Also, a number at a regional doesn't mean much, unless you are planning on retiring at said regional..

 

[arkavgal]

Do you guys thinking having additional certifications like an A&P or a Master's degree will help one stand out more? In addition to my 4 year degree, I will get my A&P because I want to know everything there is about an airplane! I am also considering getting a Masters degree which can easily be done online these days. Would these things make me more marketable?

 

[Firebird2XC]

Erm...I didn't study much Star Trek in college man, but I did read a lot of Descartes and basically yes, you are correct but it's a little bit more involved than you're making it seem. His book, "Meditations on First Philosophy" is jam packed full of a little bit more than the average Star Trek episode. It was just an example, which you seem to want to take a different direction than my original intent, but that's fine I guess. My degree didn't tell me how to think, it taught me how to think about things and examine them myself. My degree isn't a body of knowledge, but instead a body of tools that I use to construct and deconstruct arguments and statements.

Or said another way, I learned my philosophical tools by studying BS, and I use my philosophical tools to argue about political theory or put together electrical systems in my head or any number of other things that I want to apply my learned tools to.

>shrugs< To-may-to, to-mah-to. I think we're both saying the same thing, in a roundabout way, and just trying to avoid conceding we agree.

With this kind of Type-A egotism going around, it's enough to make people wonder if we're pilots or something.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Excellent post.

Gracias.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Do you guys thinking having additional certifications like an A&P or a Master's degree will help one stand out more? In addition to my 4 year degree, I will get my A&P because I want to know everything there is about an airplane! I am also considering getting a Masters degree which can easily be done online these days. Would these things make me more marketable?

Sure. In an age where everybody has a bachelor's degree, a masters will set you apart from the pack.

Just make sure you've got good healthy essentials for a pilot on the resume before you go deep on certain items. Otherwise it might just look like you're overcompensating.

Having an A&P is a good feather in your cap, and will help out alot with your operational knowledge of systems. I don't have an A&P, but I was an aircraft mechanic for several years in the military and I know it helped me.

 

[jtrain609]

>shrugs< To-may-to, to-mah-to. I think we're both saying the same thing, in a roundabout way, and just trying to avoid conceding we agree.

With this kind of Type-A egotism going around, it's enough to make people wonder if we're pilots or something.

Dunno about that bro. It's one thing to say, "Huh, looks like the number 1 gen tripped off line. Let's go ahead and recycle the switch and see if it fixes it" without really knowing what's happening vs. saying, "Hey, it looks like the number 1 gen tripped off line. It looks like it over loaded and decided it was a bad idea to be on the bus. There's probably something that's drawing too much power, so let's try to find that before we connect the gen back onto the bus to make sure that we don't zap something."

Or in other words, saying something by rote (just recycling the gen without thinking about it) vs. saying something with a clear understanding of exactly what is going on behind the scenes (figuring out WHY the gen tripped off line before resetting it).

Or in even more words, it's easy to say, "I think therefor I am!" without really understanding how it relates to phenomenology and saying, "I heard the good Captain say that one once!" and spending a few semester studying the insides of the argumentation behind it all.

Or at least that's my impression. That or I'm a complete tard and thought this argument was a lot harder to understand than it shoulda been.

Now to be completely honest, that COULD well be the case. I failed my first philosophy class, decided it was awesome anyway and took 17 credit hours of philosophy my next year. I'm still amazed I didn't fail out after that semester.

 

[ctab5060X]

... how much does the NAME of the University count?

Possibly could mean a lot, possibly could mean absolutely nothing.

Like Doug said...although someone is under the competitive mins and could possibly still get an interview because of the name of the university their degree is from.

You could also get into a situation where someone on the interview board has a degree from the same university you attended. Having something in common with the interviewers and possibly a little off topic conversation might just relax you enough that interview goes better than if you were all tense and nervous.

I had an interview with a gentleman (part 91/137 job) who had attended the same university I had for my master's...we knew a lot of the same people, and we ended up talking about the school and the department for almost 30 minutes before he ever asked the first interview type question. I was offered the job on the spot (I later ended up not taking the job), but it helped me tons to be relaxed in that situation. He later told me that one reason I got the offer was because I seemed relaxed and he also knew the kind of hard work and dedication it took in that particular department and he would have been honored to have worked with me. Probably wouldn't have gotten the offer if I had been nervous the whole time.

 

[arkavgal]

Sure. In an age where everybody has a bachelor's degree, a masters will set you apart from the pack.

Just make sure you've got good healthy essentials for a pilot on the resume before you go deep on certain items. Otherwise it might just look like you're overcompensating.

Having an A&P is a good feather in your cap, and will help out alot with your operational knowledge of systems. I don't have an A&P, but I was an aircraft mechanic for several years in the military and I know it helped me.

Yeah...right now I'm just focusing on getting my bachelor's. It's very hard because I'm already burned out and I'm taking 17 upper-level biology hours this semester so I can graduate in August. That will be worth it though. I plan on working 1-2 years after college while I'm building my flight ratings, then go to UA-Fairbanks to get my A&P. I've always wanted to move to Alaska and fly. Going to UAF accomplishes two things: it get's me my A&P, but also it will make it easy to move to Alaska. It can be challenging getting a job there from the lower 48, but I can establish myself there while going to school. The A&P program there is only 12 months long. I'm hoping in that time I can also get a job flight instructing. I want to go to the majors one day but I want to do some bush flying first while I'm still young. That's been a long dream of mine. I might consider getting my MBA online after that. If I could go back and do it over again, I would have got my BA in business. I was too far into my biology major when I realized I was far more interested in business and logistics (I took time off from college and drove a truck OTR for a while), so I'm finishing out my degree in biology. I had given up on aviation because of a color vision deficiency, but I finally found an FAA alternate color-vision test I can pass, so I am waiting on the letter of evidence for that. Once I have that I'm all set to become a pilot...and the adventure begins!

 

[Firebird2XC]

Dunno about that bro. It's one thing to say, "Huh, looks like the number 1 gen tripped off line. Let's go ahead and recycle the switch and see if it fixes it" without really knowing what's happening vs. saying, "Hey, it looks like the number 1 gen tripped off line. It looks like it over loaded and decided it was a bad idea to be on the bus. There's probably something that's drawing too much power, so let's try to find that before we connect the gen back onto the bus to make sure that we don't zap something."

Or in other words, saying something by rote (just recycling the gen without thinking about it) vs. saying something with a clear understanding of exactly what is going on behind the scenes (figuring out WHY the gen tripped off line before resetting it).

Or in even more words, it's easy to say, "I think therefor I am!" without really understanding how it relates to phenomenology and saying, "I heard the good Captain say that one once!" and spending a few semester studying the insides of the argumentation behind it all.

Or at least that's my impression. That or I'm a complete tard and thought this argument was a lot harder to understand than it shoulda been.

Now to be completely honest, that COULD well be the case. I failed my first philosophy class, decided it was awesome anyway and took 17 credit hours of philosophy my next year. I'm still amazed I didn't fail out after that semester.

I think now we're just overcomplicating things.

Does the ability to look at things and understand not just what they are but how they got to be what they are give you an edge in life? Absolutely.

My point is that developing that skill doesn't necessarily require an education loan and that colleges want us to think they have the only means to higher level understanding and learning because it furthers their commercial interests.

We're getting a product of somewhat intangible and dubious quality and ever-inflated rates. We've allowed ourselves to be mislead as to why.

I read once: "A wise man studies both books and life itself." Colleges lure us into the thinking that we can compartmentalize and then be lazy-minded the rest of the time. They want us to believe ourselves to be intellectually dependent on these great 'repositories of knowledge' that they claim to be.

A mind that is keen to learn and perceive new truth will eventually surpass those being spoon fed in a lecture hall, all else being equal.

 

[ctab5060X]

I'm taking 17 upper-level biology hours this semester so I can graduate in August.

Been there, done that, I feel your pain...

17 hours of upper-level biology is no small task. Best of luck to you!

 

[jtrain609]

I think now we're just overcomplicating things.

Does the ability to look at things and understand not just what they are but how they got to be what they are give you an edge in life? Absolutely.

My point is that developing that skill doesn't necessarily require an education loan and that colleges want us to think they have the only means to higher level understanding and learning because it furthers their commercial interests.

We're getting a product of somewhat intangible and dubious quality and ever-inflated rates. We've allowed ourselves to be mislead as to why.

I read once: "A wise man studies both books and life itself." Colleges lure us into the thinking that we can compartmentalize and then be lazy-minded the rest of the time. They want us to believe ourselves to be intellectually dependent on these great 'repositories of knowledge' that they claim to be.

A mind that is keen to learn and perceive new truth will eventually surpass those being spoon fed in a lecture hall, all else being equal.

Life is complicated, and I don't try to water it down too much

And I do understand the point you're getting at now. Yes you're extremely correct, you CAN get the same education at the public library. But truth be told, I wouldn't know much of what I know now without the guided discussion from a good graduate student or professor. That, for me, was worth the price of admission because it gave me direction in an area of study that I didn't even know you could get a degree in.

And some colleges I think are of dubious quality. I can tell you the college I went through had professors that were in charge of a program that was extremely well ranked, so for my core classes I can speak of the quality. The political science department? Eh, there were some good profs, but it was stellar (though the program fit me well). The rest of the school? Dunno! It coulda been great, coulda been suck, I didn't really pay attention to tell you the truth. All I knew outside of my core classes was our football team was losing fairly often

But with all that you're saying, I think that is boils down to HOW a person learns. Some people need that structured environment to learn in, and some of us don't. The problem, as I see it, comes when people CAN'T learn in a structured learning environment. How do you expect to get through an airline's training program if you do horrible in that environment? While you're correct, a mind that is open is learning all the time, but to be honest, college is the thing that OPENED my mind to seeing new things in the world. Before that, all I knew was what I saw in the village of 2,500 folks I grew up in. And that village was in BFE, a solid 30 miles away from the closest Taco Bell. So for me, college really opened my eyes to new ways to learn.

Thanks for clarifying your position, BTW, it makes a lot more sense now!

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I'm sure the poor guy is nervous enough as it is, without the added pressure of everyone here knowing about it! Let him study, get through the interview, and he can tell us himself when he's ready

He knows we're all behind him 100%!

Well, there are two, two potential new southern jeters, lets not forgot bout' the other one.

And, possibly a third sometime this year. If so, great guy, couldn't be happier for him!

 

[Firebird2XC]

Yeah...right now I'm just focusing on getting my bachelor's. It's very hard because I'm already burned out and I'm taking 17 upper-level biology hours this semester so I can graduate in August. That will be worth it though. I plan on working 1-2 years after college while I'm building my flight ratings, then go to UA-Fairbanks to get my A&P. I've always wanted to move to Alaska and fly. Going to UAF accomplishes two things: it get's me my A&P, but also it will make it easy to move to Alaska. It can be challenging getting a job there from the lower 48, but I can establish myself there while going to school. The A&P program there is only 12 months long. I'm hoping in that time I can also get a job flight instructing. I want to go to the majors one day but I want to do some bush flying first while I'm still young. That's been a long dream of mine. I might consider getting my MBA online after that. If I could go back and do it over again, I would have got my BA in business. I was too far into my biology major when I realized I was far more interested in business and logistics (I took time off from college and drove a truck OTR for a while), so I'm finishing out my degree in biology. I had given up on aviation because of a color vision deficiency, but I finally found an FAA alternate color-vision test I can pass, so I am waiting on the letter of evidence for that. Once I have that I'm all set to become a pilot...and the adventure begins!

Sounds like you're already off to a good start. Good luck!