Don't need a degree eh?

[Berkut]

The A&P program there is only 12 months long.

A 12-month A&P school? Yikes. I know they're an approved school, but man, that's not long at all for everything you have to learn. They must have you in class eight hours a day and studying solid until bedtime for the entire year. In any case, I recommend getting the A&P if you have the opportunity. I worked long and hard on mine and never regretted it.

Edited to add: I just noticed that you hope to instruct on the side while going to A&P school. You might want to ask them if that's feasible, cause I can't imagine you having that kind of available on a 12 month program. The training time alone is 1,900 hours, and that doesn't cover the time for outside study, which can be substantial.

 

[arkavgal]

A 12-month A&P school? Yikes. I know they're an approved school and all, but man, that's not long at all for everything you have to learn. They must have you in class eight hours a day and studying solid until bedtime for the entire year.

The classes go from 7:30am to 4:30pm. On the website it says expect to study 3 hours a day. A little intense but 12 months beats waiting 24 months to get it with more traditional programs. The hours in class and in lab are all the same as a traditional program.

 

[Berkut]

The classes go from 7:30am to 4:30pm. On the website it says expect to study 3 hours a day.

Twelve hours a day, five days a week, for a year. When are you going to find time to drink beer and chase women? Oh wait, you'll be in Alaska, let me rephrase: When are you going to find time to drink beer?

Sounds like an adventure worth having to me. Good luck!

By the way, get the good Snap-On Tiger Wave safety wire pliers. The small ones. Oh, and a decent flashlight too. Those will be your most used tools, don't skimp.

 

[arkavgal]

A 12-month A&P school? Yikes. I know they're an approved school, but man, that's not long at all for everything you have to learn. They must have you in class eight hours a day and studying solid until bedtime for the entire year. In any case, I recommend getting the A&P if you have the opportunity. I worked long and hard on mine and never regretted it.

Edited to add: I just noticed that you hope to instruct on the side while going to A&P school. You might want to ask them if that's feasible, cause I can't imagine you having that kind of available on a 12 month program. The training time alone is 1,900 hours, and that doesn't cover the time for outside study, which can be substantial.

You're right, it might not work, but I was thinking instructing on the weekends part-time. I want to have it for personal reasons. I want to be able to take a plane apart and put it back together, to know a plane inside out. That will probably also make me a more knowledgable pilot, and will definately help me for the technical part of the interview, especially at a place like Cathay Pacific. At any rate, it'll be plain fun! I love anything to do with an airplane!

 

[USMCmech]

Any time an HR dept says "A 4 year degree" without specifying, then it is a meaningless piece of paper that checks the box.


My brother has two degrees in civil enginering and physics, and a masters in ocean enginering.

My brother in law has a degree in political science, which took 7 years to complete. His mom wrote most of his papers. He never held a job for more than 3 months durring college, or honestly mastered self gromming for that matter.

Both have "a 4 year degree".

Guess which one I would trust with my car, much less my kids?


In aviation, simply attending a university, and sitting through the required classes does nothing toward making you a better pilot. It is simply a box to check on your resume.

Now going and getting an "education" is invaluable in life. Wether or not it happens on a university campus, is irelevant. The problem is that "getting a degree" is very easy, while "becoming educated" is another thing entirely. Some of the dumbest and least responsible people I have met have had postgraduate degrees.

The system is the system, and you need to check the box so you can get your resume past HR. However IMHO, a degree not in a technial field of hard science is worhtless to a pilot.


Flight instructing, and flying freight DO help build your skills, and trying to skip those rungs on the ladder WILL affect your quality as a pilot. Those steps build the skillset that you will actually use in your career.


Get an education (prefferably at a university) for it's own sake, AND build the skills that will make you a better pilot.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Any time an HR dept says "A 4 year degree" without specifying, then it is a meaningless piece of paper that checks the box.


My brother has two degrees in civil enginering and physics, and a masters in ocean enginering.

My brother in law has a degree in political science, which took 7 years to complete. His mom wrote most of his papers. He never held a job for more than 3 months durring college, or honestly mastered self gromming for that matter.

Both have "a 4 year degree".

Guess which one I would trust with my car, much less my kids?


In aviation, simply attending a university, and sitting through the required classes does nothing toward making you a better pilot. It is simply a box to check on your resume.

Now going and getting an "education" is invaluable in life. Wether or not it happens on a university campus, is irelevant. The problem is that "getting a degree" is very easy, while "becoming educated" is another thing entirely. Some of the dumbest and least responsible people I have met have had postgraduate degrees.

The system is the system, and you need to check the box so you can get your resume past HR. However IMHO, a degree not in a technial field of hard science is worhtless to a pilot.


Flight instructing, and flying freight DO help build your skills, and trying to skip those rungs on the ladder WILL affect your quality as a pilot. Those steps build the skillset that you will actually use in your career.


Get an education (prefferably at a university) for it's own sake, AND build the skills that will make you a better pilot.

This post here should be made a sticky in place of the other 8 pages of self righteous BS, bantering, and horn tooting. Very well said.

But then what do I know, I'm just an unedumakated hack.

 

[RightSeatGirl]

The problem I have with this issue is that the degree requirement is creating an ever-growing gap between the have's and the have not's. Especially with aviation. Anyone can get financial aid to go to college. Not everyone can get the additional funding required for the flight training. There are far too many silver spoons running around in this industry. And it's their lack of grounded life experience that make them hard to be around, and hard to fly with and dangerous towards the political and economical future of commercial aviation. Good pilots or otherwise, this new breed of college superstars is not what this industry needed. It's what it's getting....but not what it needs. Too many of you young guys I have flown with and talked with around the water cooler have so little understanding of the hard side of life that I wonder if you will ever truly appreciate just how awesome this job really is.

To those of you college degree or not who earned every cent of what you spent on your education...pleased to meet you...and a whole hardy attaboy! Your are the dying breed within aviation..help the younger crowd to see they could have had it much much worse....and let them know that a Degree from The University of Daddy's Bank Account will never be worth more then one from the University of Life!

As it’s been stated, a degree makes you more competitive. No one can argue that. The problem is that there is a marked belief among those who have degrees and who have never been in the full-time adult non educated work force that their college education makes them smarter, more adept, and more competent pilots when that is nothing more then a self tooting fantasy. Too many HR departments bought into that. Flying an airplane is a skill. A college degree should have never been a pre-requisite for a highly specialized job that requires a high level of natural aptitude vs non-relevant academia.

That being said and knowing it is the way it is and it’s not gonna change…get the fracking degree….as someone without one…I worry that should my airline go bye bye before I get enough PIC time and make enough contacts in the biz it may be very very hard for me to get another good flying job.

It fracking sucks…but get the degree if you can…..

 

[surreal1221]

That's really not practical. If we did that for each topic which has already had amounts of data posted, each topic would be sticky'd and we would have a forum filled with sticky's...

Such as the one that already exists?

Hot Topic Archive. . .it's a great thing, and should certainly be used.

RSG,

You mention the have's and have not's.

There will always be someone out there, that has enough money, who will pay for an RJ course. Think about that. CFI's are a dieing breed. I saw a new wave of these RJ cyborgs this evening. I just hope they can actually fly a twin engine piston airplane - I'll know by Weds.

 

[caliginousface]

Not to piss anyone off or call anyone stupid but...

I'd like to add it's not just about being more marketable, it's about educating yourself, so you know more about the world you live in, and not the world that lives you. You'll never know where you go in life, and we need our future generations to be knowledgeable about more than just V1 and V2.

 

[jynxyjoe]

*yawn*

I'll see u all at the BK shoving fries in the frier when management turns 121 aviation into a part time job. Hey maybe i'll get senority over all of you.

 

[DE727UPS]

I think Jtrain is right on with his perspective. Those that take his tact in a personal manner are missing the point and seem to want to flame his opinion.

I've seen when it took 1500 total and 300 multi to buy a regional job. There is no doubt those days, while not appreciated by the quick up and comer, turned out a more well rounded, experienced, airline pilot. Can a 250 hour guy do the job? Well, I suppose, but not to a standard that I think is realistic. Or to a standard that I think is even slightly appropriate...

I long for the day when the 300 hour guy gets "supply and demanded" out. It will be better days when a higher standard is enforced and becomes the norm. And I say this all from a position of not having a dog in the fight, really, other than I just think it's right.

 

[surreal1221]

I long for the day when the 300 hour guy gets "supply and demanded" out. It will be better days when a higher standard is enforced and becomes the norm. And I say this all from a position of not having a dog in the fight, really, other than I just think it's right.

Thank God!

I was speaking with my wife over dinner concerning just this.

The day will come when the minimums are back up at 1000/200 (at a minimum. . .higher will also eventually occur). It's a cycle, always has been, always will be.

So I explained to my wife, that these RJ transition course kiddies - the ones that do the course RIGHT before the minimums shoot up are going to SOL unless they actually have the time to back up their resume (CFI/II/MEI). But, I don't think enough of them realize the damage they are doing to the profession to really give a damn about themselves - much less the profession.

 

[Zero1Niner]

Jtrain...whatever. I just read your post, and I see from 7 pages of replies that it has got some traction, but I couldn't wait to read through the other responses before commenting. Its not so much what you said, but how you said it that comes off so ridiculous. I realize that your vast years of experience in the industry (how old did you say you were??? 25?) has provided you with this great wisdom, but seriously....give me a freaking break. That was in NO way what I would call a 'reality' check. Sounded more like you stroking yourself because of the decisions YOU have made.

Although there are some points buried within your rambling that I agree with, there is certainly no hard and fast formula that applies to everyone. I agree that the more you have in your bag of tricks (degree, CFI, high time, etc) the better off you you are (in any industry). But it certainly doesn't mean that if you don't have some or any of those thing, that it basically knocks you out of the running. That's freaking insane!

This industry is changing and evolving. There are new opportunities that have never existed before. Sure...if you have the opportunity, go to school and get your degree. Hard to argue with that. But should everyone do the Degree>CFI>Freight>Regional>to get to the Legacy carrier route?...hardly. Especially in a time when regionals are hiring with 400hrs? Sure. I see your point.

Flexibility, often times, is ultimately the best asset to posses. Times are changing. Be aware and prepared to take an opportunity when it presents itself.

Heya,


I'm up kinda late tonight (for me), have a few minutes on my hands and thought I'd throw something up here about something that has been bugging me. This topic comes up pretty often so I figured, why not throw down my opinion on the subject, as I seem to give my opinion on just about everything else in the world. It didn't really fit within the degree thread, so this one is getting started.

For you cats out there that are getting into this gig and want to meet the minimum standards for this job, I've got some really bad news for you; you're most likely in a lot of trouble. Do you guys actually think that you can get into this industry, meet the minimum qualifications and have choice companies knocking on your door?

We've got kids out there who come on and ask, "Do I REALLY need a degree?" or, "I don't wanna flight instruct! Do I have to?" As far as I'm concerned, if you need to ask the question, you need not apply.

To all you new guys; listen up. You are entering a profession of overachievers, people smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.

THESE are the people you are competing with for jobs. Read that word again; competing. You are trying to best these people in order to get the job that BOTH of you want, and in some situations only one of you will get it.

If you think that it's a good idea to skip flight instructing, skip college, skip flying freight, skip the regionals, skip charter, skip corporate or skip any number of things that will make you a better, more well rounded pilot in addition to a better, more well rounded person then you might as well just get your application to Mesa in order because that could well be the final stop for you.

I don't mean to be TOO negative, but there needs to be a bit of a reality check in this department. There has been so much hiring going on in the last few years at the regionals that I think everybody has gotten the idea that all you EVER needed to get a job at an airline was 600/100. Let me tell you what kids.

Two years ago when I was looking flight instructor jobs, I was told at something like 10 different interviews from the get go that if I didn't go to Riddle or UND, they probably weren't interested. 6 months later people couldn't find enough instructors. A year and a half ago when I was looking for work at a regional you couldn't buy an interview with under 1000/200. Now? 250/0 and you're flying Dash-8's or EMB-145's. Upgrades were running ULTRA fast at some companies. A year at Skywest, 18 months at Express, a year at CHQ.

This is not the norm, and things WILL start to slide back in the other direction. It always has and it always will.

Things are slowing down. Hiring is slowing down, the economy is slowing down and the qualifications to get these jobs WILL go up. Do you really think it's a prudent idea to forgo college, forgo having a flight instructor certificate and forgo any other chance you may have of building some PIC time doing banner tow, throwing meat missiles or any other ways to build time BEFORE you get to an airline cockpit? What are you going to have when the furlough comes, and believe me if you miss a furlough in this industry count yourself among the lucky ones. That 500 hours of SIC ERJ time like the other 700 guys you just ended up on the street with isn't going to get you much.

Me? I'm 25, flight instructed, spent time in a large air carrier's training department, passed three part 135 checkouts, passed a 121 checkout, never failed a check ride, never had a student fail a check ride (part 91 or 135), have a college degree, a cute fiance and I've got a lot of friends that would walk in a resume for me. And to be completely honest with you, I still VERY much view myself as an extremely low time pilot and that I'm not that well qualified, but I'd put my resume up to a cat that walked outta some academy with no degree and no real world experience.

So what are you going to do to combat that and make yourself a more marketable pilot who will get the job instead of me?

You're going to do everything you can to become a well rounded pilot, a better connected pilot, a well rounded individual and if you're smart you'll try like heck to best me in every way that you possibly can because when the furlough hits, I'm not worried in any way about being able to find another flying job. And if I can't? Tough luck, I go to law school and make more money than I would as a pilot anyway. I can do that because, guess what kids, I went to college and got a pre-law degree.

What makes YOU more marketable? Folks have GOT to start looking at this stuff and saying, "How can I make myself a better, more marketable pilot" instead of saying, "Oh gee whiz I've gotta teach! Oh no! That's horrible! I just wanna fly a jet! I don't want to do anything more than the minimum amount of work!"

And since I didn't mention it, GO TO NETWORK JETCAREERS! Anybody that doesn't make it is simply making it harder for themselves to get a job. I've gotten every job I've had in the aviation industry because of people I met at NJC, and I imagine that trend will continue.

Make yourself more marketable, make yourself stand out, go ABOVE AND BEYOND EVERYBODY ELSE, don't go for the minimum standard, network and make friends and if I haven't said it yet GO TO COLLEGE and be ready and willing to WALK AWAY from this career if it doesn't give YOU what you want out of it.

 

[jtrain609]

Jtrain...whatever. I just read your post, and I see from 7 pages of replies that it has got some traction, but I couldn't wait to read through the other responses before commenting. Its not so much what you said, but how you said it that comes off so ridiculous. I realize that your vast years of experience in the industry (how old did you say you were??? 25?) has provided you with this great wisdom, but seriously....give me a freaking break. That was in NO way what I would call a 'reality' check. Sounded more like you stroking yourself because of the decisions YOU have made.

Although there are some points buried within your rambling that I agree with, there is certainly no hard and fast formula that applies to everyone. I agree that the more you have in your bag of tricks (degree, CFI, high time, etc) the better off you you are (in any industry). But it certainly doesn't mean that if you don't have some or any of those thing, that it basically knocks you out of the running. That's freaking insane!

This industry is changing and evolving. There are new opportunities that have never existed before. Sure...if you have the opportunity, go to school and get your degree. Hard to argue with that. But should everyone do the Degree>CFI>Freight>Regional>to get to the Legacy carrier route?...hardly. Especially in a time when regionals are hiring with 400hrs? Sure. I see your point.

Flexibility, often times, is ultimately the best asset to posses. Times are changing. Be aware and prepared to take an opportunity when it presents itself.

Suit yourself bossman, but the regionals WILL NOT continue to hire at 400 hours and if you think they will you haven't been paying attention to the economy and what happens to our jobs when it tanks. That was part of what I was trying to debunk.

When I got hired at my current company everybody in class was jumping up and down screaming, "18 month upgrades! 18 month upgrades!" I told them that it probably wasn't going to happen like that and I got called a buzz kill.

They just canceled our last set of upgrade classes.

 

[yzf]

My 2 cents..

What works out great for someone may not work so good for someone else. Getting hired at your dream job will depend on timing, hiring, connections, the economy, and lots of other stuff. With everything that's happened in the last 10 years who knows what company will be the place to be in another 10 years?

As for me, delaying the college let me spend 2+ years instructing, 2 years of freight (FLX for all the graduates here!), and some time as a regional captain before getting hired at the airline I'll probably retire a few months ago at age 25 with 0 days of college. Is this the best route? Probably not, I'm still going to get a degree but it's worked out and I've had lots of fun on the way.

 

[tonyw]

Look, I've been drinking after a hockey game and I'm gonna be one hunt over son of a bitch tomorrow moring when I have to go to work.

But even in my state, I'm telling you this. Get hte muddafracking degree. Sbhut, do it, and be done with it.

It's worth 60 percent more in comp. It's worth over a million over a career.

Now, if you're rich enough to blw off a million, give me some.

Otherwise, shut up, and get ht degree.

 

[averyrm]

I'm not on a hiring board, but I know the guys pretty well. Here, at least, having the 4 year degree puts you higher on the list.

There ya go.

 

[Ian_J]

The purpose was not to pat myself on the back, Ian, it was to give these kids a point of reference. How would you like to go into a test not knowing what you're up against?

Teacher: We're giving you a test today

Student: Alright! Over what?

Teacher: I can't tell you that, explaining the material to you might make you feel like you've done less preparation than me, so I'm just going to give you the test.

Student: But how are we supposed to know what the answers are if we have no frame of reference.

Teacher: Well I gave the answers to some of your class mates

Student: But, that's BS! They might know more than me because I didn't get the opportunity to have all the cards on the table!

Teacher: Deal with it, and good luck!

Ian to be completely honest my resume isn't that impressive, and if people think that it's really all that great then they need some SERIOUS introspection into their own career. When I'm up against guys like you, Seggy, FlyChicaga, Doug, Fly4Pay and all these other cats that have WAY more experience than I do, I shudder to think of how an interview would go down with me, Segs and Matt all in an interview at once. Simply put I wouldn't be invited to said interview, and if I was I'd be laughed out the door. How am I supposed to compete with a guy that has time in the military flying helicopters for thousands of hours and has some as an aircraft commander? I can't, simply put And THAT sir drives ME to better myself because as soon as I realize I'm behind the power curve, it gives me pause to realize that if I don't get on the ball I'm going to be left out in the cold.

John,

I understood all that from the get go. Like I said before - the college degree topic is a valuable one, no doubt. I also understand your intent was not to pat yourself on the back. It's just in your effort to get your message out in your original posts - something got lost along the way. You've clarified yourself (in numerous posts), and as long as someone reads ALL of this thread, they should understand now.

And for those who say this thread has predictably turned into a "my way is better than yours" thread, try and read all the posts without so much skimming. This was neither the point of the OP, nor do most posters tend to share that opinion.

As a non 121 guy just gleaning information from the JC masses over the last two years, this is a pretty simple subject. If I were to sum up all of the posts here into the most critical, need to know information about this subject, it would look like this:

- To get higher in the 121 world, most likely you'll need a degree. No matter the rare instances where one might be hired without it, chances are, you'll need it.

- If you have a degree, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those without.

- If you don't have one, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those with.

- If you don't have one, you can still be pretty successful in the aviation business - but you have a lesser chance of working for a major airline.

- If you do have one, it doesn't guarantee you will get hired with a major airline.

- Flight experience is very important. But if an airline wants a degree, they want a degree.

Pretty simple?

 

[H46Bubba]

John,

I understood all that from the get go. Like I said before - the college degree topic is a valuable one, no doubt. I also understand your intent was not to pat yourself on the back. It's just in your effort to get your message out in your original posts - something got lost along the way. You've clarified yourself (in numerous posts), and as long as someone reads ALL of this thread, they should understand now.

And for those who say this thread has predictably turned into a "my way is better than yours" thread, try and read all the posts without so much skimming. This was neither the point of the OP, nor do most posters tend to share that opinion.

As a non 121 guy just gleaning information from the JC masses over the last two years, this is a pretty simple subject. If I were to sum up all of the posts here into the most critical, need to know information about this subject, it would look like this:

- To get higher in the 121 world, most likely you'll need a degree. No matter the rare instances where one might be hired without it, chances are, you'll need it.

- If you have a degree, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those without.

- If you don't have one, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those with.

- If you don't have one, you can still be pretty successful in the aviation business - but you have a lesser chance of working for a major airline.

- If you do have one, it doesn't guarantee you will get hired with a major airline.

- Flight experience is very important. But if an airline wants a degree, they want a degree.

Pretty simple?

Thanks for the Cliffsnotes Ian!

 

[mwflyer]

John,

I understood all that from the get go. Like I said before - the college degree topic is a valuable one, no doubt. I also understand your intent was not to pat yourself on the back. It's just in your effort to get your message out in your original posts - something got lost along the way. You've clarified yourself (in numerous posts), and as long as someone reads ALL of this thread, they should understand now.

And for those who say this thread has predictably turned into a "my way is better than yours" thread, try and read all the posts without so much skimming. This was neither the point of the OP, nor do most posters tend to share that opinion.

As a non 121 guy just gleaning information from the JC masses over the last two years, this is a pretty simple subject. If I were to sum up all of the posts here into the most critical, need to know information about this subject, it would look like this:

- To get higher in the 121 world, most likely you'll need a degree. No matter the rare instances where one might be hired without it, chances are, you'll need it.

- If you have a degree, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those without.

- If you don't have one, you are not necessarily smarter or dumber than those with.

- If you don't have one, you can still be pretty successful in the aviation business - but you have a lesser chance of working for a major airline.

- If you do have one, it doesn't guarantee you will get hired with a major airline.

- Flight experience is very important. But if an airline wants a degree, they want a degree.

Pretty simple?

the whole thread summed up in one post. excellent job!