DCA instructors get a HUGE pay increase!!
- Thread starter RedBaron1
- Start date
The CFI's are employed as airline employees here. Its always been that way dispite peoples 'opinions' about the schools ownership.
What's the difference if someone worked for an airline in another capacity,(say a mechanic)while working for that company, they got their ratings. Then they get an interview with that company, got hired and they got to keep their seniority hire date from when they started working for that company originally? Remember, there have been few airlines that have had flow through agreements in the past.
What's the difference if someone worked for an airline in another capacity,(say a mechanic)while working for that company, they got their ratings. Then they get an interview with that company, got hired and they got to keep their seniority hire date from when they started working for that company originally? Remember, there have been few airlines that have had flow through agreements in the past.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
:yup: Oh boy, you are so far from the truth! I want you to ask all the guys from DCA who have come to Comair, if they were airline employees while working as CFI's at DCA, and kept their "seniority" at Comair. And go ahead and ask the others that went to all the other regionals the same question. Sorry dude but you've been snorting the Kool-Aide powder before they even get to mix it up and give it to you!:cwm27:
I was an employee at DCA as well, and I sure as hell didn't get the same employee number and seniority. I left DCA and went straight to Comair. I'll tell you what I got. New DOH and a seniority date of day 1. Sorry to burst your dilluted bubble but DCA may be owned by Delta through Comair Holdings Inc, but DCA and Comair are two...yes two seperate companies. Even when Comair operated DCA when it was CAA, there was no flow through as far as company seniority and such.
I'm not talking about the DCA thing. MmmmKay.
I'm saying, if you while working for Comair as a mechanic or other job, got the rest of your ratings (right now) then interviewed for an FO job with that company, your going to lose all your seniority or aren't you? I know of several cases in which pilots have trained while working on the ramp and other areas for regional airlines, then interviewed for and FO spot and never lost their seniority with the company.
I'm saying, if you while working for Comair as a mechanic or other job, got the rest of your ratings (right now) then interviewed for an FO job with that company, your going to lose all your seniority or aren't you? I know of several cases in which pilots have trained while working on the ramp and other areas for regional airlines, then interviewed for and FO spot and never lost their seniority with the company.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
From APC:
"The exact wording of the memo sent out on 5/31/07 by DCA.
Good Afternoon:
It is with great excitement that I am announcing an Industry first. DCA and COMAIR airlines have reached an agreement to interview our flight instructors after they have completed 400 hours dual given at the academy, and if accepted, allow the candidate to obtain a COMAIR Airline seniority number. No otehr training academy has ever been able to make such an agreement!
Listed below is the outline of the agreement:
-Delta Connection Academy flight instructors must complete 400 hours dual given at DCA, they are then eligible to interview with COMAIR Airlines.
-Once the flight instructor successfully passes the interview process, the CFI will be given a seniority date at teh airline at the time of acceptance.
-the CFI is expected to instruct at DCA for 4-5 months and fly approximately 400 hours during these months
-while instructing, the CFI will be paid $240 per week by COMAIR and 30% of the normal CFI pay by DCA
-the remaining 70% of the normal CFI pay (at the academy) will be paid to the CFI once they successfully complete COMAIR Airlines training.
Once you become eligible to apply for the COMAIR interview, please work with the HR department on your application packet and eligibility dates."
That was from Captain Gary Beck
President/CEO of DCA"
It's very easy to read into this that the pilot would be getting a "pilot seniority number", not just a "company employment seniority number".
So, which is it?
Will DCA CFI's employed by Comair, while instructing for DCA, be on the Comair pilot seniority list? Or simply be accruing seniority as a Comair employee.
Another way of putting it. When a DCA CFI shows up on his first day of Comair airline pilot class. Will his placement on the Comair pilot seniority list reflect his previous service as a DCA CFI?
"The exact wording of the memo sent out on 5/31/07 by DCA.
Good Afternoon:
It is with great excitement that I am announcing an Industry first. DCA and COMAIR airlines have reached an agreement to interview our flight instructors after they have completed 400 hours dual given at the academy, and if accepted, allow the candidate to obtain a COMAIR Airline seniority number. No otehr training academy has ever been able to make such an agreement!
Listed below is the outline of the agreement:
-Delta Connection Academy flight instructors must complete 400 hours dual given at DCA, they are then eligible to interview with COMAIR Airlines.
-Once the flight instructor successfully passes the interview process, the CFI will be given a seniority date at teh airline at the time of acceptance.
-the CFI is expected to instruct at DCA for 4-5 months and fly approximately 400 hours during these months
-while instructing, the CFI will be paid $240 per week by COMAIR and 30% of the normal CFI pay by DCA
-the remaining 70% of the normal CFI pay (at the academy) will be paid to the CFI once they successfully complete COMAIR Airlines training.
Once you become eligible to apply for the COMAIR interview, please work with the HR department on your application packet and eligibility dates."
That was from Captain Gary Beck
President/CEO of DCA"
It's very easy to read into this that the pilot would be getting a "pilot seniority number", not just a "company employment seniority number".
So, which is it?
Will DCA CFI's employed by Comair, while instructing for DCA, be on the Comair pilot seniority list? Or simply be accruing seniority as a Comair employee.
Another way of putting it. When a DCA CFI shows up on his first day of Comair airline pilot class. Will his placement on the Comair pilot seniority list reflect his previous service as a DCA CFI?
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
You didn't specify.
That is true. When you transfer within the company, you keep your company seniority for benefits and nonrev purposes only. If you transfer to a pilot position, you will have your company DOH seniority, then you will get a different pilot seniority number which will be at the bottom of the seniority list. Pilots bid by pilot seniority not DOH. So basically this "program" will screw you on your position on the pilot seniority list. You're still gonna sit on reserve like everybody else, but all the guys that interviewed off the street after you, will have a higher senioity number and will have been on reserve and already flown, by the time the DCA CFI's come back to start training at Comair. If this program is true, then this is a fishy deal between the management of Comair, Delta, and DCA. I really don't see the MEC approving this if it gives DCA CFI's a pilot seniority number.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
RedBaron made this statement:
"plus significantly reduce the time spent physically on reserve @ Comair!"
That can only mean advance placement on the pilot seniority list, not just employee seniority.
What does "physically on reserve" mean, anyway? Is there some kind of non-physical reserve I haven't heard about?
"plus significantly reduce the time spent physically on reserve @ Comair!"
That can only mean advance placement on the pilot seniority list, not just employee seniority.
What does "physically on reserve" mean, anyway? Is there some kind of non-physical reserve I haven't heard about?
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
There is a lot of grey areas in that "memo" from DCA management. This has to be voted on by the MEC if they are issued a pilot seniority number. There are some big legality issues with that. If you are on the pilot seniority list, it would be as an FO and you'd have to be paid the 1st yrs FO payrate at the 75 hrs minimum guarantee, not the $240/week. What is a normal pay check for a DCA CFI? Is 30% a good deal in addtion to the $240 from Comair. Then there is the remainder 70% once Comair training is complete. So do these CFI's go through CRJ training at Comair, then return to DCA to get their remining 400 hrs of dual instuction? If so it goes back to CBA coverage if they are actually trained FO's on the pilot seniority list.
Soul Brotha'
Off to go do Black guy stuff
That DCA memo has about much worth as a Braniff/Ozark/Pan Am stock option.
planediveguy
New Member
Guys,
When the upper management started to tell us (middle management) about this deal, the intention was not to lie to students, nor instructors. The forecasted shortage of CFIs due to the lowering of hiring minimuns by the regionals made the business model seem unviable unless we could retain CFI's for the original dual given time agreement.
The normal agreement is that a CFI at DCA will teach for 800 of dual given instruction in an aircraft, and be "released" when she/he meets that time requirement, plus has logged 1000 of total time and of those, 100 hours of Multi-engine time. A couple of years ago, when very few were getting hired, our graduates were getting hired with just the above minimuns.
With the growth in the business and the retirements in the Majors, the demand for pilots led the regionals to drop their hiring minimus to, in some instances, less than half of the previous requirements. Comair and Chautauqua, after having a wash-out rate of close to 50% of the "low time" hires, decided to raise their minimuns back to 1000 hours. (that is what I was told)
During that time I had a meeting with the instructor staff where I mentioned to them that if all of them were to place an application on-line that night, the Academy would go out of business in three weeks time. But the people that would get hurt were going to be the current enrolled students, not management. Most instructors, even with the famous "not exactly ideal" working conditions and payscale, stuck out and worked really hard to keep things going. To all of them I give my sincere thanks!
The idea of hiring instructors and keeping them in the Academy before getting them on a Regional Jet class had as an objective:
1 - Prevent instructors from breaking their agreement and leave the school before their 800 hours of dual given time.
2 - Allow COMAIR to count on guaranteed qualified candidates for their increasing ( at the time) hiring demands.
3 - The instructors would have a job waiting for them when their time was due, taking a ot of the stress out of the equation.
Clearly that was not enough, and the Academy now has a very competitive pay plan for instructors. I have only received positive feedback so far, and am still working on making Group managers and Instructors life easier, before I leave my "management" position on Thanksgiving.
There is, and there was not, an ill intent regarding the "get hired but still work at the Academy" deal.
Hope this helps you understand. And move on to more important issues...
Regards,
Fabio
When the upper management started to tell us (middle management) about this deal, the intention was not to lie to students, nor instructors. The forecasted shortage of CFIs due to the lowering of hiring minimuns by the regionals made the business model seem unviable unless we could retain CFI's for the original dual given time agreement.
The normal agreement is that a CFI at DCA will teach for 800 of dual given instruction in an aircraft, and be "released" when she/he meets that time requirement, plus has logged 1000 of total time and of those, 100 hours of Multi-engine time. A couple of years ago, when very few were getting hired, our graduates were getting hired with just the above minimuns.
With the growth in the business and the retirements in the Majors, the demand for pilots led the regionals to drop their hiring minimus to, in some instances, less than half of the previous requirements. Comair and Chautauqua, after having a wash-out rate of close to 50% of the "low time" hires, decided to raise their minimuns back to 1000 hours. (that is what I was told)
During that time I had a meeting with the instructor staff where I mentioned to them that if all of them were to place an application on-line that night, the Academy would go out of business in three weeks time. But the people that would get hurt were going to be the current enrolled students, not management. Most instructors, even with the famous "not exactly ideal" working conditions and payscale, stuck out and worked really hard to keep things going. To all of them I give my sincere thanks!
The idea of hiring instructors and keeping them in the Academy before getting them on a Regional Jet class had as an objective:
1 - Prevent instructors from breaking their agreement and leave the school before their 800 hours of dual given time.
2 - Allow COMAIR to count on guaranteed qualified candidates for their increasing ( at the time) hiring demands.
3 - The instructors would have a job waiting for them when their time was due, taking a ot of the stress out of the equation.
Clearly that was not enough, and the Academy now has a very competitive pay plan for instructors. I have only received positive feedback so far, and am still working on making Group managers and Instructors life easier, before I leave my "management" position on Thanksgiving.
There is, and there was not, an ill intent regarding the "get hired but still work at the Academy" deal.
Hope this helps you understand. And move on to more important issues...
Regards,
Fabio
DCApilot2006
New Member
This is the smartest thing I've read in this thread so far. Why can't people see this for what it is? It's sneaky, slimy DCA scheme. The academy is going to pay you your 70% AFTER you finish your contract? WTF is this?
Here's a simple EASY answer that even DCA cannot SCREW UP! No tricky contract needed. Pay your instructors NORMAL rates. Allow them the opportunity to eat. They'll do their time, and move on. If they choose to leave early because the regionals are taking 200hr wonders, guess what? The system works. Potential new students will see this and say, "WOW! DCA got that dumbass with 200 hrs a job. Maybe I should go there too. Where can I give my 80K to? " This is just a cycle, in a couple of years, you won't be able to BUY a 20thou a year job working at a regional.
Everybody wins.
On the other hand, no one is asking the REAL question why the regionals need pilots so bad to start with. Do you really see THAT many people retiring from the majors and actually jumping from the captain's seat on a RJ just to start all over as a CP with a crap senority number at a major?
This isn't why they need pilots folks. It's about the MONEY! Just like DCA!
20K a year is GARBAGE money. People ARE beginning to see the light and bigger pilot shortages are coming.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Hope this helps you understand. And move on to more important issues..."
Ahhh, nice try to sweep this under the carpet, where it belonged all along, but seniority to airline pilots IS an important issue.
Seems like none of the DCA management types want to come out an answer my question. Not surprised, if they were smart, they never would have mentioned any of this in the first place and just let it pop up one day at the DCA website.
"There is, and there was not, an ill intent regarding the "get hired but still work at the Academy" deal"
Easy for you to say. Hard for me to believe. I think DCA's marketing has been full of "ill intent" since I started posting at this site and read my first flight training magazine. The difference is Planedive looks at it from the standpoint of a DCA manager, and I look at it from the standpoint of an airline pilot who knows better. It's all a matter of perspective.
Ahhh, nice try to sweep this under the carpet, where it belonged all along, but seniority to airline pilots IS an important issue.
Seems like none of the DCA management types want to come out an answer my question. Not surprised, if they were smart, they never would have mentioned any of this in the first place and just let it pop up one day at the DCA website.
"There is, and there was not, an ill intent regarding the "get hired but still work at the Academy" deal"
Easy for you to say. Hard for me to believe. I think DCA's marketing has been full of "ill intent" since I started posting at this site and read my first flight training magazine. The difference is Planedive looks at it from the standpoint of a DCA manager, and I look at it from the standpoint of an airline pilot who knows better. It's all a matter of perspective.
planediveguy
New Member
The pay rate has increased, and instructors will make a lot more than 20k a year. And yes ask anyone in the top regionals, they are losing an average of 20 people a month on attrition.
planediveguy
New Member
You can twist my post to fit your bashing needs anyway you want. The only thing you cannot really change is the fact that DCA graduates have been getting hired by Top Tier Regional cariers longer than you have been trying to make people see it from "the airline pilot's perspective" in this site.
Before being a "manager" I was a student and full time instructor and seen the inner works at the Academy and understand the place better than most of you. And the management position was always a temporary deal for me. I got my class date at a regional and don't need to sell or "defend" the Academy. But it saddens me that people like you insist on bashing the place based on hearsay.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Let us know in a couple of years after you leave the "academy" and see the real life how your perspective changes...
planediveguy
New Member
Don,
if you question is if the CFI will get a number on the pilot's seniority list... I don't have an answer. As a matter of fact I will do some diggin on my side of things to find out WTF is going on with this deal, and will give you an update this week.
One of the things that I have heard is that when the recruiter from COMAIR came to the school to offer the deal to our instructors a few weeks back, no one actually applied... There is some negative rumors about COMAIR amongst the instructor body ( perhaps from some of their own instructors that now fly for COMAIR ) and not many of our graduates have been applying there lately.
Again, I will ask the right people about this and will let you all know where it stands.
if you question is if the CFI will get a number on the pilot's seniority list... I don't have an answer. As a matter of fact I will do some diggin on my side of things to find out WTF is going on with this deal, and will give you an update this week.
One of the things that I have heard is that when the recruiter from COMAIR came to the school to offer the deal to our instructors a few weeks back, no one actually applied... There is some negative rumors about COMAIR amongst the instructor body ( perhaps from some of their own instructors that now fly for COMAIR ) and not many of our graduates have been applying there lately.
Again, I will ask the right people about this and will let you all know where it stands.
planediveguy
New Member
Let us know in a couple of years after you leave the "academy" and see the real life how your perspective changes...
I am hoping it will... I do meet a lot of Alumni from the Academy that come to visit. Some are now in the Majors, some flying cargo of corporate... A few complain about how expensive it was, but none complain about the training.
Thanks anyway
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
I'll be honest, I haven't been keeping up with this discussion that seems to have been going on between you and DE72...I was only pointing to the fact that you are "management" for a school and have yet to see what a line pilot would see. Perspective is everything.
So far, from what I've read in this thread, you have a deal with an airline that is supposed to be so good, yet none of your instructors actually applied to said airline due to either rumor or reputation. And this is supposed to draw people in...
This discussion has nothing to do with the quality of instruction, by the way. It's all about the marketing and management deals.