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Champcar said:
Let me guess its not the Unions fault, they where pressured by jetBlue's lower pay right.
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It is obviously too much to ask for you to think logically. It was Legacy airline management who were pressured to match jetBlue wages. Why? Because jetBlue was profitable in a time when the Legacies were not.

And they weren't profitable because of blue corn chips or satellite TV. They were profitable because they cut labor costs and had sweetheart leasing deals from Airbus and Embrarer.

They cut labor costs by finding pilots who were willing to work for $60 to $80 dollars an hour less and clean the planes. They cut labor costs by not providing an A plan retirement, using stock options as bait.

The Legacy airlines were forced to lower their labor costs to match. And they did it by using the Bankruptcy Court and Chapter 11 to abrogate Union contracts and impose jetBlue wage rates.

Do some research. There is cause and effect in this industry, especially when airline executives spot something that is making money and flock to it like a mindless covey of quail.
 
I wonder if Velocipede is an actual airline pilot. I really cant imagine a captain for a major airline being so bitter about this topic. Even if he were I doubt a real captain would be posting so frequently about it on JC. Just an observation.
 
Velocipede said:
Very true.



All jumpseats are issued at Captain's discretion.



No, because all jumpseats are issued at Captain's discretion.



That would be his call to make. Reciprocal agreements are made Company to Company. Regardless, all jumpseats are issued at Captain's discretion.

Get it? Got it? Good.
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Wow, thanks. I guess you came out of the womb an Airline Captain with all the knowledge you have now without ever having to ask for clarification from those that you respect that have been where you want to go. That must be a great feeling.
 
Velocipede said:
It is obviously too much to ask for you to think logically. It was Legacy airline management who were pressured to match jetBlue wages. Why? Because jetBlue was profitable in a time when the Legacies were not.

And they weren't profitable because of blue corn chips or satellite TV. They were profitable because they cut labor costs and had sweetheart leasing deals from Airbus and Embrarer.

They cut labor costs by finding pilots who were willing to work for $60 to $80 dollars an hour less and clean the planes. They cut labor costs by not providing an A plan retirement, using stock options as bait.

The Legacy airlines were forced to lower their labor costs to match. And they did it by using the Bankruptcy Court and Chapter 11 to abrogate Union contracts and impose jetBlue wage rates.

Do some research. There is cause and effect in this industry, especially when airline executives spot something that is making money and flock to it like a mindless covey of quail.
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HAHA thats perfect!!

So United and Delta's unions matching Pay to try and be the highest paid airline pilots had nothing to do with it. More pay is good but there is a point where its past reality. Could be or couldnt be I don't know nor care honestly.
 
Velocipede said:
You don't understand and/or didn't follow the whole bankruptcy court thing did you?
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Uhhhh, YOU are the one that doesn't understand it. NONE of the "A plans" were terminated by an 1113 proceeding by a BK court Judge.

I don't know how to say that more clearly.

Certain MEC's NC's negotiated them away in 'our best' interests.
 
BEvaristo said:
...without ever having to ask for clarification from those that you respect that have been where you want to go.
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Yeah, if only that were true. However, these two threads prove there are a whole group of guys who haven't been there, but think they have all the answers.

Perhaps if they'd listen, pause and engage in some critical thinking, this debate wouldn't be so emotional for them.

It certainly isn't for me. It is, however, amusing.
 
Velocipede said:
You don't understand and/or didn't follow the whole bankruptcy court thing did you?
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Well, believe it or not I understand that it was a rather huge case of bankruptcy profiteering on the part of management.

Delta pilots put up a good fight, even going so far as cleaning out their lockers and getting ready to dig in for a long fight.

Then a 12th hour TA came out, which was a turd, but better than what had previous been offerred complete with some snap back provisions, and it was signed into law.

Some contend that if they didn't sign the TA into law, the bankruptcy judge would have forced their hand. So they felt they were bargining with a gun to their head. Some say they might have had a better contract had they held out longer, who knows.

That being said it wasn't the same situation over at NWA, senior pilots ate their young and hung their skins out to dry, for the promise of a pension.

They probably have the worse contract in the industry and their MEC said sign it, it's as good as were gonna get. Not sure that strike was even talked about or origanized.

Rumor has it that you fly for Alaska. If that be true, your situation is really no better. Alaska pilots are nashing teeth and threathening action if a better contract isn't voted in. So besides spitting venom here, should you actually be an Alsaka pilot, what're you doing to improve life for pilots in the northwest?

As bad as things are now, fortunately most majors don't have a 16 yr. contract like Eagle. Meaning that a turkey contract today can be ratified into a golden or at least better paying contract with decent work rules tomorrow.

But I gotta agree with most here that are stating that ALPA and their franchinse pilot groups are soley responsible in large part for the difficulties that we as future and present professional pilots are having to endure in the industry currently.
 
Velocipede said:
Yeah, if only that were true. However, these two threads prove there are a whole group of guys who haven't been there, but think they have all the answers.
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I don't believe you have been there either. What are your credentials? Which "major" are you working for. When were you hired? Come on, man up and let's hear it.
 
Max,

When the bankruptcy gun is held to your head, sometimes you've got to acquiesce. Because you know they're ready, willing and able to pull the trigger. Fortunately, that option is gone with a rewrite of the Bankruptcy Code. Delta went Chapter 11 mere days before the new Code was to take effect in order to essentially abrogate their contracts.

All it takes is a comparative look at narrowbody payscales to see what level the managers want to settle at. Surprise! Its jetBlue.
 
Velocipede said:
If he's a product of American public school education, its not an insult, merely a statement of fact...
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ask me if i care. it doesn't belong in the thread..has nothing to do with the content of the thread and is just an unnecessary shot across the bow.
 
Velocipede said:
It is obviously too much to ask for you to think logically. It was Legacy airline management who were pressured to match jetBlue wages. Why? Because jetBlue was profitable in a time when the Legacies were not.

And they weren't profitable because of blue corn chips or satellite TV. They were profitable because they cut labor costs and had sweetheart leasing deals from Airbus and Embrarer.

They cut labor costs by finding pilots who were willing to work for $60 to $80 dollars an hour less and clean the planes. They cut labor costs by not providing an A plan retirement, using stock options as bait.

The Legacy airlines were forced to lower their labor costs to match. And they did it by using the Bankruptcy Court and Chapter 11 to abrogate Union contracts and impose jetBlue wage rates.

Do some research. There is cause and effect in this industry, especially when airline executives spot something that is making money and flock to it like a mindless covey of quail.
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I'm gonna have to disagree with you. You mentioned in a previous post Flying The Line. So you're well aware of the long strife between management and pilots.

Managements could care less about Jetblues rates. Management saying that they needed to be leaner and meaner was simply a ######## selling point to get the employee groups to acquiesce with their concession demands of working harder with less. It was quite simply greed in the form of bankruptcy profiteering, cooked books, creative accounting no more, no less.

To both improve the stock holders bottom line better and line their pockets with huge bonuses. Delta management threathen liquidation if the pilots didn't agree to $315 million dollars in concession. Do you really think they were going ot liquidate for a mere $315 million? Northwest flied BK with a billion in the bank.

If management was really concerned with competeting with LCC's and posting profits in the age of oil at $75 a barrel, they would have raised prices and services and ammenities on board. And with planes flying at pre 9/11 capacity the was no real fear of sales dipping due to a $5-15 hike. Try to see rationally with your eyes and believe less what the talking heads on cable news and the hedge funders are spouting.
 
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