Moved out of Calpcapts JS thread

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Pilot877 said:
Actually, I see your reasoning but respectfully disagree. The Private Pilot made an outstanding point, and the guys who are on their way up need to see the potential pitfalls of one's command decisions.
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they can still see/respond, this forum's not password protected or anything.. but because the professional pilots understand more "about" the situation, it's really for them to discuss and for those moving up the ranks to learn.
 
Kristie said:
they can still see/respond, this forum's not password protected or anything.. but because the professional pilots understand more "about" the situation, it's really for them to discuss and for those moving up the ranks to learn.
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I see, I thought this was more like Doug's "Hot Topic" forum dump for all things PFT. That still cracks me up.
 
Velocipede said:
I think you've got it half right, Max. Of course, they care about jetBlue rates. At the time, jetBlue was the media darling. New entrant. Low wages (40% below average). No retirement funding. They became the model for how to cut wages and benefits.

How did the airlines respond? Chapter 11. Abrogate Union contracts. Put the gun to the head of the pilots and threaten to liquidate unless they acquiesced.

And they got what they wanted. Now everybody's pay and benefits is approaching the jetBlue model. The airlines have returned to profitability and jetBlue has lost its competitive edge.

Then along comes Virgin and lowers the bar even more. The pressure will be on to match. Fortunately, the airlines will not be able to rely on the Bankruptcy Code this time.

Guess what? Along comes Skybus and lowers the bar even more.

And I should extend "professional courtesies" to the guys who are lowering the bar for all of us? I don't think so.

I do agree with you about the piracy at the top. A short look at airline executive compensation (Mr. Grinstein is the notable exception) is all you need to affirm that.
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Naw, still gotta disagree. You think airline management cares what the media says about the industry?

They knew that JTBLU was the media darling of the minute, but that eventually that love would turn to hate, like it did this past winter.

The hot #### airline today is tomorrows loser in the media. Any executive that runs an airline based soley upon a review in the NY Times is an idiot.

These people believe it or not, are smart. They could run an airline into the ground, or make it prosper should they wish. But under the current laws there is no incentive, it makes more sense to run it into the ground as a trust fund baby and retire with a golden parachute. After all, they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth, went to Harvard, Yale or Brown, they shouldn't actually have to work, right?

What we see being layed out in front of our eyes is simply the rich getting richer and an aggressive attack on the middle class.

They saw with Jetblues rate an opportunity to cash in, they didn't care about the airline. Hell they knew worst case scenario the government would bail them out and they'd still get bk proof retirement packages.

Worst of all, is that the pilot groups bought it fearing for their job and took cuts, while managements took huge bonuses and spied a once in a lifetime opportunity to defang the unions that had long since been a thorn in their sides.

If you want to debate, lets cut excuses, and bring the meat to the table.

"After all, beef, it's what's for dinner!"
 
Holy crap!:confused: The entire time I was reading this I ended up being transported to the pro pilot corner!:panic::panic:
 
I think many of you are missing the bigger picture. I maybe under the mistaken impression that many of you believe that if an airline raises prices, all will be solved and pay will go up.

The problem with that is the airline industry is elastic (inelastic?) meaning that you can raise prices only so much before traffic starts to drop off; for each $10 increase in airfares you lose x number of passengers.

Add to that the cutthroat competition and it's mighty difficult for anyone to make money in this industry.

I think the days where a pilot can make $500,000/year are long gone. With that said, I really think that $18k/year is woefully low for a college graduate. I believe the bottom should be somewhere around $35k-40k/year. I went to college specifically to avoid making $18k/year.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
They knew that JTBLU was the media darling of the minute, but that eventually that love would turn to hate, like it did this past winter.

The hot #### airline today is tomorrows loser in the media. Any executive that runs an airline based soley upon a review in the NY Times is an idiot.
What we see being layed out in front of our eyes is simply the rich getting richer and an aggressive attack on the middle class.
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You misunderstood me. I never meant to imply that the managers emulate the jetBlue model due to media. All they look at is labor cost. In payroll and retirement dollars. They recognized that much of jetBlue's initial success was due to their low labor costs, up to 2/3rds less than they were forced to pay by Union contracts.

So, what is they're response? Drive their labor costs down to match the competition. That's where they are today...jetBlue. If Virgin succeeds, that's where they'll want to be tomorrow. They already use the "Virgin is coming" scare tactics.

They saw with Jetblues rate an opportunity to cash in, they didn't care about the airline. Hell they knew worst case scenario the government would bail them out and they'd still get bk proof retirement packages.

Worst of all, is that the pilot groups bought it fearing for their job and took cuts, while managements took huge bonuses and spied a once in a lifetime opportunity to defang the unions that had long since been a thorn in their sides.
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Agreed. However, the opportunity would not have presented itself without 1000 pilots who were willing to sell themselves and their services for substandard wages. To a regional pilot, jetBlue rates probably looked pretty good and they didn't have a clue about the cause and effect they were instigating. Its the furloughed Legacy pilots who have no excuse. They KNEW what they were doing when they signed on with jetBlue, but did it anyway and used the sad, old, scab excuse, "I had to feed my family."

The bottom line? I don't feel compelled to offer professional courtesies to the kind of 'gentlemen' who willingly undermined our profession for short term personal gain.
 
Perhaps you should change yours to "WishIWereAtALegacy"

But I'm sure you're content with your glorified regional airline.
 
ok, threads over...when barbs are continually being sent back and forth (this is not FI), the topic of said thread gets lost and the learning stops...if you cannot discuss civily without calling people out, then we'll stop the conversation for you.

please revisit rules #1, #4 and #8 for future notice. We don't put them up there for ##### and giggles.
 
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