Republic Hires 430 Hr Pilot!

777forever,
Read Doug's post above very carefully and take it to heart. He's making some excellent points that, whether you like it or not, will definately help you make good decicions throughout your career.

When I was working on my private in 2001, I was told by an AA captain that the place to go to was Mesa pilot development in Farmington. I loved the location (yes, I liked the Colorado plateau) and the idea of getting to an airline as quickly as possible was attractive. Reading Jetcareers and other sources convinced me that 1) the prospect of having my "guaranteed interview" be with Freedom made the school unattractive, and 2) 250hrs in an airliner is a bad idea. My point? Listen carefully to those who tell you things that you don't want to hear. Don't tune them out, because the 121 pilots you're ones you're listening to may be the same ones who appear in the letters section of Gulfstream Academy.

Although it may sound like it, I'm *not* trying to bash ATP. I think overall they have a very strong program. I'm just extremely wary of schools that promise you as much as ATP does. I've known multiple people who have not been successful with their style of teaching (or their particular instructor) at all. I've witnessed major, major screw-ups by their instructors under actual IFR, flown with multiple disgruntled former ATP students, and personally know examiners who ATP refuses to use anymore because they failed so many of their students. Again, I don't mean to bash ATP, but I want help you understand that no flight school is as perfect as you're making them out to be.

And please, please, don't have a sense of entitlement about getting into a jet with 400hrs because you went to ATP. When you get to an airline, most people don't care where you went--they care about your experience, your abilities, and your attitude. I've gotten drunk with more than one Gulfstream Academy pilot, and they were pretty nice guys. We just didn't talk about the whole PFT thing.
 
desertdog71 said:
How much solo time do you have when you finish at ATP?
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I think around 15 hrs. There is none built into the 90day program. Other than the 10 required for the private you get none at ATP. I did fly with a guy during the x/c phase that had no clue what was going on though so that may as well have been solo.
 
falconvalley said:
Sure thing, ATP is a good school, but you can do it for cheaper is all.
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That is true now, but back in the day, just two years ago you would have been hard pressed to get all those ratings and flight time for the price they had. It was a great deal. If I had accepted the CFI job after the program, I have no doubt I would have been hired at a Regional a few months after finishing the program there.

Instead I have been tooling around teaching in 172s for the better part of the past two and a half years.
 
777forever said:
That doesn't mean their right does it? I know many part 121 pilots that back me up. After all, doesn't ATP send pilots to the regionals?

It was ALOT tougher to get a job back then when you were looking. Now regionals are begging people to come fly.
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To save my friend Frog_Flyer a heart attack, it's they're!
 
777,

It seems you're pretty impressed with "ATP grads" like they're something extra special. I went to ATP for my CFI ratings. I've trained guys who went to ATP. I've flown with friends who are grads of ATP. Some sucked, some didnt. ATP doesnt provide any better training than Mr. McFly's Flight Academy. You always mention that the airliens love ATP guys because of their high quality training. Not so dude. Not so.
 
Timbuff10 said:
That is true now, but back in the day, just two years ago you would have been hard pressed to get all those ratings and flight time for the price they had. It was a great deal. If I had accepted the CFI job after the program, I have no doubt I would have been hired at a Regional a few months after finishing the program there.

Instead I have been tooling around teaching in 172s for the better part of the past two and a half years.
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7 years ago, you could join a club and fly a 152 for $35-45 wet and even hire an instructor from a school if the club didn't have one and still come out as a CFI way under the $30k ATP was charging at the time. What draws people in, though is the whole package. Why wouldn't alot of people throw down 50 g's for something like that? You don't have to worry about alot of stuff that you'd have to manage being a student at an FBO or club. But the whole point is that you're paying for stuff that you don't necessarily need. So what if you tool around for a little longer. It's definitely not going to hurt you. I did, for 7 years and now I'm 29 1/2, an FO on a B1900. So what if I didn't make it here at 22, 23, or 24 yro? That's what, 5-7 years of airline pay that I missed out on? Who cares. If you want to make the airlines, you're gonna make it eventually. I consider my timing to have been about the worst. Most people can certainly do better if they put their mind to it. But at airline less than 2 years after your first flight? In the interest of experience, that is not necessary. There will always be people that miss the up cycles of hiring. I was one of them. If you have been trying to get an airline job for 5 years or less, you haven't missed much. Hiring has been picking up for the better part of a year and will probably continue for a while.
 
meritflyer said:
777,

It seems you're pretty impressed with "ATP grads" like they're something extra special. I went to ATP for my CFI ratings. I've trained guys who went to ATP. I've flown with friends who are grads of ATP. Some sucked, some didnt. ATP doesnt provide any better training than Mr. McFly's Flight Academy. You always mention that the airliens love ATP guys because of their high quality training. Not so dude. Not so.
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I think one note here too is back to the marketing and the MASS number of people who attend ATP. So therefore it does appear more ATP people find the airlines but if its put into a statistical format I bet there are just as many percentage wise at the airlines that went FBO as there are other ways to get a job. ATP has a great marketing schem and are able to get a lot of people to attend, that does not mean percentage wise they have the MOST and make there training the best. Just means they have a LOT of people who go there, at the same time talk to people at local training for a 121 I bet they would say there classes are pretty dynamic with their backgrounds.
 
meritflyer said:
777,

It seems you're pretty impressed with "ATP grads" like they're something extra special. I went to ATP for my CFI ratings. I've trained guys who went to ATP. I've flown with friends who are grads of ATP. Some sucked, some didnt. ATP doesnt provide any better training than Mr. McFly's Flight Academy. You always mention that the airliens love ATP guys because of their high quality training. Not so dude. Not so.
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In response to Doug's post I will keep my opinions about this subject to myself for a while. A little about my background, I got most of my rating through the university 141 system. When I went to ATP for my multi and currently my CFIs, I was impressed by the training there. Much faster then university, with motivated instructors (On commission based pay). This is why I show much enthusiasm for the program. The main reason I went to ATP was to get multi-time so that I wasn't stuck like a lot of my friends at the university who had to purchase multi-time or wait for a 135 job. Ever heard the slogan "Get multi, Get hired" ? I did not go there because ATP promised me a job. I go to ATP and Im just proud of the program. Am I wrong for that? Someone proud from University of Texas is not going to say, UT is great but Texas A&M is better! But one last question for you guys, if its not because of the training why do you think ATP instructors get hired with lower minimum qualifications?
 
430TT is very low time. I am surprised that RAH went this low. Times are-a changing though. Typically it was rare for someone to get hired with less then 1500TT since 9-11 at RAH. What does a 430TT pilot have to offer in an airline environment? Not much. If they are a good study hopefully they will know whats in the book and some systems info. But where ya need is experience is when you are given situations that are in the book, or when the book needs a little massaging. Ill give ya an example.

I flew with a brand new FO who was green as green, and was xtremly by the book. Flying into CVG on a nice clear day I could already see a set up for a poor approach. We are on downwind doing about 240Kts....ok now going away from the airport "I ask why are we still doing 240kts??..starts to slow, gets a tight vector (higher speed , wider turn), and of course now we are starting to venture into the other runways final. I tell him to turn tighther, and the bastard wont turn over 30 degrees b/c thats what he's been taught in the book (and starts defending himself in this manor) (Dont try this technique with your captain, it doesnt yield good results) . I bark at him some more and of course he finally gets around after a bark from ATC. Luckily there wasnt conflicting traffic on the other runway, but most of the time there is. I could go on, but hopefully you can see the difference in experience and book knowledge by this small example.
 
n57flyguy said:
Yeah, thought that was you.:D

Great to hear things are good at Colgan! When do sims start?

O, congrads on systems passed!
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I don't look that good!! :laff:

Thanks for the congrats. Systems was tough, but we had a great instructor and studied my tail off. Kind of reminds me of boot camp here, being trapped for 6 weeks! :D But so far I've been able to keep my head above the water, good thing the Guard taught me how to swim. :)

Sims start Sunday! :nana2:
 
Kingairer said:
I flew with a brand new FO who was green as green, and was xtremly by the book. Flying into CVG on a nice clear day I could already see a set up for a poor approach. We are on downwind doing about 240Kts....ok now going away from the airport "I ask why are we still doing 240kts??..starts to slow, gets a tight vector (higher speed , wider turn), and of course now we are starting to venture into the other runways final. I tell him to turn tighther, and the bastard wont turn over 30 degrees b/c thats what he's been taught in the book (and starts defending himself in this manor) (Dont try this technique with your captain, it doesnt yield good results) . I bark at him some more and of course he finally gets around after a bark from ATC. Luckily there wasnt conflicting traffic on the other runway, but most of the time there is. I could go on, but hopefully you can see the difference in experience and book knowledge by this small example.
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Sounds like your FO is a tool. 230kts in a pattern? Proves nothing about his flight times and everything about his flight training. Students tend to model their instructors, when the instructor is a good model to follow, the students usually do the same.
 
777forever said:
if its not because of the training why do you think ATP instructors get hired with lower minimum qualifications?
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They really aren't lower minimums (save for Skywest's agreement). If you get someone to walk your resume in to any airline, you can get hired with the same times. There are plenty of cases-in-point on this forum. It has nothing to do with the training - I did some at ATP (ME add-ons), and thought it was completely what YOU made of it. If you're a Captain Bob, you can excel.

REGARDLESS of this issue, the amount of respect you'll get at ANY airline is based on what you did before. Whether you were a marine grunt or a freight dog, you are bound to make the guy in the left seat think (this guy's done something, impressive!). This is not to say you'll get slammed for being a aviation program grad, but you're going to have to earn your respect.
 
777forever said:
But one last question for you guys, if its not because of the training why do you think ATP instructors get hired with lower minimum qualifications?
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Dude, I went to a large academy with formal ground schools 5 days a week and ATP for my CFI ratings due to some time constraints with my wife giving birth to our son. ATP trains you for the checkride only. Nothing beyond. The training at ATP is not superior to any other academy. If anything, its geared towards just getting you trained according to the gouge. Atleast for my CFI initial, all I studied was the gouge. Once I was done with my checkride, guess what I did? Wrote a gouge for the next guy.

I can tell you after going to both an accelerated program and a very formal large academy that the training at the large academy was much more in depth and ultimately provided a better aviation education; more well rounded. ATP was good only in a sense they told me exactly what to study.

Do I think ATP provides the industry with good pilots. Yes. Do I think that ATP provides super pilots that should be hired at lower times because of their superior ATP education? Not even close.

Get it out of your mind that they are the "Harvard" of the skies. They provide exactly the same education that the local FBO does.
 
Airdale said:
Sounds like your FO is a tool. 230kts in a pattern? Proves nothing about his flight times and everything about his flight training. Students tend to model their instructors, when the instructor is a good model to follow, the students usually do the same.
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No, it proves no experience. How is a CFI with no jet experience gonna press home the point that it does no good to do 240kts going away from the airport, when they are puttin around at 70kts in a C152.
 
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