Republic Hires 430 Hr Pilot!

Ill give ya an example.

I flew with a brand new FO who was green as green, and was xtremly by the book.

"I ask why are we still doing 240kts??..starts to slow, gets a tight vector (higher speed , wider turn), and of course now we are starting to venture into the other runways final.

I tell him to turn tighther, and the bastard wont turn over 30 degrees b/c thats what he's been taught in the book (and starts defending himself in this manor) (Dont try this technique with your captain, it doesnt yield good results) .

I bark at him some more and of course he finally gets around.

While I do completely agree with your point, arguing with the captain is never productive, the way you are phrasing your comments towards your FO is probably why he/she got defensive.
Instead of asking Why are we still doing 240???, maybe just tell him he should start to slow. When you ask hypothetical questions like that, the immediate response it Man I'm screwing up. I personally feel it belittles the pilot, talk to them and tell them that they should be slowing.
New pilots often do exactly what is in the book because that is the way they are taught and tested. They don't know anything else, and that is where encouraging and recomending pointers is beneficial as a captain.
Thirdly, refering to the First Officer as a Bastard, I don't know where name-calling is productive. Maybe next time instead of taking an offensive strategy, just take your time and explain where the deviations began to occur. Sometimes discussing on the ground, when the stress levels are less is a better way to get your point across.
You said yourself, you could already see that the approach wasn't being set up properly, so maybe coaching the situation sooner then later will help. Try this and I'll bet you get a much better response than "BARKING" at your FO.
 
Sounds like your FO is a tool. 230kts in a pattern? Proves nothing about his flight times and everything about his flight training. Students tend to model their instructors, when the instructor is a good model to follow, the students usually do the same.

Maybe you shouldn't insult people you don't know.
 
While I do completely agree with your point, arguing with the captain is never productive, the way you are phrasing your comments towards your FO is probably why he/she got defensive.
Instead of asking Why are we still doing 240???, maybe just tell him he should start to slow. When you ask hypothetical questions like that, the immediate response it Man I'm screwing up. I personally feel it belittles the pilot, talk to them and tell them that they should be slowing.
New pilots often do exactly what is in the book because that is the way they are taught and tested. They don't know anything else, and that is where encouraging and recomending pointers is beneficial as a captain.
Thirdly, refering to the First Officer as a Bastard, I don't know where name-calling is productive. Maybe next time instead of taking an offensive strategy, just take your time and explain where the deviations began to occur. Sometimes discussing on the ground, when the stress levels are less is a better way to get your point across.
You said yourself, you could already see that the approach wasn't being set up properly, so maybe coaching the situation sooner then later will help. Try this and I'll bet you get a much better response than "BARKING" at your FO.


Maybe you shouldn't insult people you don't know.


You certainly do like to lecture...

Kevin
 
While I do completely agree with your point, arguing with the captain is never productive, the way you are phrasing your comments towards your FO is probably why he/she got defensive.
Instead of asking Why are we still doing 240???, maybe just tell him he should start to slow. When you ask hypothetical questions like that, the immediate response it Man I'm screwing up. I personally feel it belittles the pilot, talk to them and tell them that they should be slowing.
New pilots often do exactly what is in the book because that is the way they are taught and tested. They don't know anything else, and that is where encouraging and recomending pointers is beneficial as a captain.
Thirdly, refering to the First Officer as a Bastard, I don't know where name-calling is productive. Maybe next time instead of taking an offensive strategy, just take your time and explain where the deviations began to occur. Sometimes discussing on the ground, when the stress levels are less is a better way to get your point across.
You said yourself, you could already see that the approach wasn't being set up properly, so maybe coaching the situation sooner then later will help. Try this and I'll bet you get a much better response than "BARKING" at your FO.

Sounds like CFIing to me......

The way I see it #46

I am NOT a regional CA or for that matter an airline pilot at all. I am ignorant on the 121 world.

Correct me if im wrong please....

The reason there are two pilots on airliners is for pure safety reason. If the Captain cannot complete the flight for whatever reason then it is the first officers duty to bring the pax to their destination safely.

A 500 hour pilot may have the knowledge to fly the aircraft, but do they have that confidence, that certain swagger in the cockpit? Thats where the hours come into play with me. I think 500+ hours of CFIing will help that confidece level greatly. Or even some single pilot 91 or 135 time. I could not imagine having my family on a regional jet and the Captain (god forbid) keels over and dies. The FAA's numero uno goal is safe skies. Why is this train of thought slipping through the cracks?
 
I'm not sure how to make it clear that the captain's job is not to be a CFI.

If you step into the cockpit and you're not up to speed, you're a liability when people are paying for you to be an asset.

You're there to keep the captain out of trouble, not there to hope he'll fill in the gaps from the training department or lack of experience.
 
I'm not sure how to make it clear that the captain's job is not to be a CFI.

If you step into the cockpit and you're not up to speed, you're a liability when people are paying for you to be an asset.

You're there to keep the captain out of trouble, not there to hope he'll fill in the gaps from the training department or lack of experience.


This is not meant to flame, but it's just on honest question. Don't you think a good captian should be passing on some of his wisdom. Like if your upgrading to a new A/C. It's not the capts job to explain the limits, flows or call outs, that should have been handled in shcool. But wouldn't you agree it's his job to give you the real scoop on how to fly the A/C on the line. Or what if your flying a new route? I have had trans atlantic training, but have never flown the trip. I would expect a good capt that has flown it, to be able to at least explain the ins and outs of flying the atlantic tracks. Am I way out of line or does that sound like the capts you guys have flown with?

Again much respect to every one here, not meant to flame at all.:)

Mark
 
This is not meant to flame, but it's just on honest question. Don't you think a good captian should be passing on some of his wisdom.

Sometimes the 'wisdom' is technique that may or may not get you into trouble. Remember, you don't always upgrade to captain because of wisdom, skill or that you're a great guy. Sometimes it's because you're senior and you passed the checkride! :) A lot of people are the "your leg, fly it how you want (within reason), we'll keep each other out of trouble". I've never really had much wisdom 'passed on' to me, but I've absorbed a heck of a lot by pure osmosis/exposure.

Emulate the great ones. "Systems Dump" the bad apples.

Like if your upgrading to a new A/C. It's not the capts job to explain the limits, flows or call outs, that should have been handled in shcool. But wouldn't you agree it's his job to give you the real scoop on how to fly the A/C on the line.

No, his primary job is pilot-in-command. His secondary job might be to pass on things, but if the captain's *job* was to do all of the above, what do you do when you're senior to the captain and have more experience in type than he does? What can he pass on? It's happened a couple times to me.

Or what if your flying a new route? I have had trans atlantic training, but have never flown the trip. I would expect a good capt that has flown it, to be able to at least explain the ins and outs of flying the atlantic tracks. Am I way out of line or does that sound like the capts you guys have flown with?

Well, while he's back napping, it's (I presume) between you and the other FO! :) My captain that I have in 767 school is getting his first transoceanic seat. When he's sitting with two experienced FO's crossing the pond, it's pretty obvious who is the sole PIC of the jet, but he's the new guy on the airplane, new to the operation, which way does the information flow?

If he's on a jet and theoretically (not supposed to happen of course) gets a couple of brand new, wet-behind-the-ears FO's fresh out of new hire class, who does he depend on to crosscheck?

This is professional aviation, not an FBO or flight academy. There needs to be experience in both seats, doing the job.

Experience is a two-way street. I've saved the captain's tail a few times in the simulator, and he's saved mine a few times because that's our job. Besides, if it was the captain's job to groom FO's, what happens if there's a weak FO and a apathetic PIC who simply thinks that his pay isn't commensurate with acting as PIC and being expected to raise a newbie?

Because when the crap hits the fan he needs your help, your guidance and not a shocked, bewildered-looking neophyte that has the "Gee Skipper, what'll we do? What'll we do?" look on his face.

If a copilot can't fully command the aircraft if the pilot-in-command slumps over dead at the yoke, he shouldn't be in the right seat.

Remember, we're all adults and big boys and girls. Please don't come to an airline expecting people to hold your hand.

That's a little raw, but my honest perspective.
 
King Airer's FO was doing the same thing he's always done: cruise power on the downwind in a 172 or a Seminole is no big deal. It is in an RJ. He was falling back on what he knew, and that was don't start reducing the power until you're abeam the numbers. Well, that's fine if you're doing 120 kts, but NOT fine if you're doing TWICE that. Nevermind that fact you do that crap at a Class D airport, you're CA is gonna beat you senseless to keep from getting him violated.


And exactly how is another year of instructing in a 172 or Seminole going to make this FO slow the RJ down? It doesn't matter what power setting you had in the 172 or the Seminole. Its flying a target airspeed. I didn't know what power settings I had in the Seminole to hold 100kts in the pattern, I just did. Its called knowing how to fly and control your airspeed. If the FO was new, maybe he was surfing on the tail trying to get adjusted to the how fast things happen. Flying a Seminole or a blazing 172 isn't going to make the adjustment any easier.

AmazingPilot said:
Maybe you shouldn't insult people you don't know.

Maybe you should go back to being an Amazing Pilot and push your AP button.
 
Its flying a target airspeed. I didn't know what power settings I had in the Seminole to hold 100kts in the pattern, I just did. Its called knowing how to fly and control your airspeed.

You're missing the point of his post. It wasn't about not being able to fly a target airspeed, it was the thinking behind it - ie hey we're #1 for the field and I'm doing 250 knots...not configured, going away from the airport. He was, after all, flying the airspeed...it was just too fast.

And I agree, it was probably because the FO was new. A simple "hey you wanna slow down" would've sufficed if the FO had a good attitude. Sounds like they didn't though.

One thing I do find though is if you go randomly slowing down from 250 to say 200 knots in the terminal area ATC can get a little antsy. They generally assume you are going 250 most of the time, at least in the NE from what I can tell. Generally it's 250 till they assign a speed.
 
You're missing the point of his post. It wasn't about not being able to fly a target airspeed, it was the thinking behind it - ie hey we're #1 for the field and I'm doing 250 knots...not configured, going away from the airport. He was, after all, flying the airspeed...it was just too fast.

And I agree, it was probably because the FO was new. A simple "hey you wanna slow down" would've sufficed if the FO had a good attitude. Sounds like they didn't though.

One thing I do find though is if you go randomly slowing down from 250 to say 200 knots in the terminal area ATC can get a little antsy. They generally assume you are going 250 most of the time, at least in the NE from what I can tell. Generally it's 250 till they assign a speed.


I understand. It just seems that there is alot of hostility about this here lately. I really don't think it matters how much flight time you have, transitioning to a completely new airplane is going to take a little bit of time. A good friend and long time pilot mentor of mine is a Continental 73 Captain. he just transitioned to the 75/76 and just told me tonight that his last few flights he's felt pretty far behind the airplane with the differences - which is why airlines don't pair up "green on green" crews. He's been relying on his FO with alot of hours in type. Why can't that be a two way street?
 
Why can't that be a two way street?


Oh you will be relying on the Commanders a lot.

Why don't you post a few things after your first sim session on Sunday about your first sim experience at 500 hours total time then get back to us.

:D
 
:)
Experience is a two-way street. I've saved the captain's tail a few times in the simulator, and he's saved mine a few times because that's our job. Besides, if it was the captain's job to groom FO's, what happens if there's a weak FO and a apathetic PIC who simply thinks that his pay isn't commensurate with acting as PIC and being expected to raise a newbie?

So what you are saying is, your're both on an equal playing field, and should be helping each other out. Not just to keep people out of trouble but to make each other better airmen. If that is what your saying I fully agree.

I don't think being new to an airplane should make you a liability. You should be able to aviate, navigate, and communicate with your capt and crew. Not being able to do that is what I believe makes some one a liability. But if you were new to an A/C, and a Capt (or a fellow FO) gave you some advice about certian ways to configure etc. Would you be pissed that you know what your doing, and he should leave me the hell alone? Or would you be appreciative?

I guess I have all these question because I fly with the same two guys, and that's it. It is nice to get an idea about what goes on in the other worlds.:)
 
Maybe you should go back to being an Amazing Pilot and push your AP button.

I don't know what your background is and I really don't care, but a little repect for your fellow pilot from time to time will go a long way.

I am not trying to insult you, so please don't take it that way.
 
No doubt, sheesh! I thought I was bad! :)

Well just let me know if you think I'm out of line...

That being said, I think there is a big difference from being new to the aircraft and having to teach someone how to fly.
While, yes, the captain's job is as PIC and not to Flight Instruct the FO, I do think there is a little bit of instructing going on. A first officer should mimic his/her captain, learn from their years of expierence.
The majority of people who go to an airline have instructing expierence, becuase that expierence is highly desirable. It shows an ability to operate an aircraft safely with the distraction of training a student pilot.
In the 121 world, a captain will be exposed to some FO who are stronger and some who are weaker. The more expierence an FO has the better and more prepared that FO will be when upgrade rolls around. It's not a matter of knowing how to fly, it's a matter of knowing how to fly a new aircraft. Advanced jets have very different handiling characteristics than smaller turboprops, speed differences can be very misleading.
For example, if you put a B-777 captain into a C-172, I bet you he/she will over-rotate on takeoff and flare to high on landing.
I flew with a guy once who was a corporate jet pilot, we were in a C-172 and called the airport tower controller 45 nm from the airport. Does that make him a bad pilot, no he just was used to flying at 3 times the speed.
 
A first officer should mimic his/her captain, learn from their years of expierence.


No a first officer is not their to mimic his captain.

A good first officer is one who takes good traits from every captain they fly with. They take those traits and then they mold them into their own style once they upgrade.
 
No a first officer is not their to mimic his captain.

A good first officer is one who takes good traits from every captain they fly with. They take those traits and then they mold them into their own style once they upgrade.

We are saying the same thing here...

You've just chosen to phrase it diffently.

Just like your persepctive changed from when you first got hired at 500 hours to now, your perspective will change after you become a captain.
 
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