QX2059 Jumpseater tries to shutdown engines

killbilly said:
The part that irks me is that as a jumpseater on the flight deck you are an additional crewmember.

Which means you need to be medically fit to fly.

He was nowhere near this and decided - yes, made a conscious decision - to leverage his privileges and occupy a jumpseat.

He might as well have been drunk.

And whatever sympathy I have is strained there because a 121 Captain goddamned well should know better.
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You're right, of course.

And I don't mean this as an excuse.

Still, the psyche ... the mind ... is a place where all is not always black-and-white.

This guy made some conscious choices which worked against a future of healing and rational thought (the shrooms, specifically). Things worked out well this time, fortunately, but I'll posit there are others in a place not so far away. The necessary checks-and-balances may not currently be enough, although I'm not sure how one might delve into the psyche of an individual to know for certain.

Life, circumstances unique to the person, assumptions about dealing with same, financial and familial responsibilities which weigh heavily, sometimes lead to places one might not ordinarily go.

Personal responsibility? Yep, absolutely (at least for me). Still, an understanding that - maybe - most/many/some of us aren't too far from that same place based upon where we find ourselves in life might.

Certainly YMMV.
 
killbilly said:
The part that irks me is that as a jumpseater on the flight deck you are an additional crewmember.

Which means you need to be medically fit to fly.

He was nowhere near this and decided - yes, made a conscious decision - to leverage his privileges and occupy a jumpseat.

He might as well have been drunk.

And whatever sympathy I have is strained there because a 121 Captain goddamned well should know better.
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I agree with all this, although I’d like to point out that by the time he was at cruise he thought he was in a dream so whether he actually consciously made a choice to show up that way is pretty questionable. I’m not at all schooled in the effects of the substance in question so I’m really curious about how far back in the sequence you have to go to find a time when he was really in a position to make the choice. Maybe altitude has an effect and he was fine at sea level? The choice to make this experiment somewhere other than home is very interesting as well.
 
Roger Roger said:
I agree with all this, although I’d like to point out that by the time he was at cruise he thought he was in a dream so whether he actually consciously made a choice to show up that way is pretty questionable. I’m not at all schooled in the effects of the substance in question so I’m really curious about how far back in the sequence you have to go to find a time when he was really in a position to make the choice. Maybe altitude has an effect and he was fine at sea level? The choice to make this experiment somewhere other than home is very interesting as well.
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It could all be BS, as well. He may have just had some sort of mental break.
 
killbilly said:
The part that irks me is that as a jumpseater on the flight deck you are an additional crewmember.

Which means you need to be medically fit to fly.

He was nowhere near this and decided - yes, made a conscious decision - to leverage his privileges and occupy a jumpseat.

He might as well have been drunk.

And whatever sympathy I have is strained there because a 121 Captain goddamned well should know better.
Click to expand...
Getting rocked on shrooms hasn't been an option for this person for decades, the fact that he was a captain proves this. I find very little to consider as redeeming as someone that (like almost everyone here that have chosen to not to engage in the use of anything that might get you busted for a drug test for any reason, random or not) gets a little skippy when I smell weed. I suspect more information will be provided and I'll be very surprised if this pilot hadn't recently stopped taking some sort of medication, legal or not. Drugs are bad, Mmkay...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXQUWmXzPeM
 
As a new dad of young twins I feel terrible for this guy and his family.

As a new dad of young twins….eff this guy. Selfishly I say it could have been my kids in the back, but either way it was 83 of someone’s kids in the back.

I am sorry for his kids but I hope the charges stick.
 
CoffeeIcePapers said:
It could all be BS, as well. He may have just had some sort of mental break.
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I think that’s likely.

Maybe some day the FAA will get with the 21st century concerning mental health. Maybe AAM-300 needs to have their budget withheld until they employ a medically diverse, competent staff of MD’s. Not rigid ex-military doctors stuck in the 1950s.

How many pilots fudge their medical applications? How many pilots bury feelings and emotions that are completely normal as a human being to satisfy an antiquated, ASS BACKWARD federal agency?

I can’t be the only pilot that wishes we could have a non-punitive way of dealing with and rehabilitating mental health issues without destroying our careers. But we don’t.
 
MikeOH58 said:
As a new dad of young twins I feel terrible for this guy and his family.

As a new dad of young twins….eff this guy. Selfishly I say it could have been my kids in the back, but either way it was 83 of someone’s kids in the back.

I am sorry for his kids but I hope the charges stick.
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I don’t. I hope the charges are dropped. They guy had a mental breakdown, but left after a very brief scuffle and then admit himself in the cabin he needs to be restrained.
 
knot4u said:
Getting rocked on shrooms hasn't been an option for this person for decades, the fact that he was a captain proves this. I find very little to consider as redeeming as someone that (like almost everyone here that have chosen to not to engage in the use of anything that might get you busted for a drug test for any reason, random or not) gets a little skippy when I smell weed. I suspect more information will be provided and I'll be very surprised if this pilot hadn't recently stopped taking some sort of medication, legal or not. Drugs are bad, Mmkay...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXQUWmXzPeM
Click to expand...

All I'd note is this:

Firstly it isn't a valid excuse and should never have gotten to that point,

Secondly, decades don't really matter, that which does is the moment a mind/psyche/soul snaps - and that is brought on by who knows what for sure (circumstances, imbalance, whatever)?
 
Other thing to think about, is that psychedelic "micro-dosing" for mental wellness/mental health issues, is very en vogue right now. Nicole Kidman starred in an entire miniseries about it a year or two ago. So it isn't a huge leap to think this guy could have been self medicating a legitimate mental health issue based on what he saw somewhere. Most of these people aren't doctors and have no idea what kind of dangerous BS they are peddling on vulnerable people who just want help. Again, don't know any more about this incident than any of you, but it is a thought. Drugs can hit mentally unstable people much differently than normally mentally functioning folks. My wife's cousin smoked pot one time.....one time......in college, and went into a months long mental episode (basically full blown psychosis for several weeks) where he was involuntarily hospitalized. I think he was ultimately diagnosed with depression, and that was many years ago. Has recovered and lives a very full and happy life today. I know that sounds like some ridiculous Nancy Reagan BS, especially given the drug in question, but it really happened. It just really had an incredibly unpredictable and profoundly long lasting effect on his brain.
 
CoffeeIcePapers said:
It could all be BS, as well. He may have just had some sort of mental break.
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Possible. I don't think he is making this up though. I doubt he has any reason at this point to lie. His career is over, and he'll never pilot an airplane again. Whether he used illegal substances, or was mentally unstable, or both. From a legal perspective, I think either explanation would probably help his case. And I see no scenario, short of him being a terrorist, where any other explanation makes sense. The drugs makes more sense than the mental "snap" in my opinion, having seen other folks under effects of LSD or mushrooms, personally.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I don’t. I hope the charges are dropped. They guy had a mental breakdown, but left after a very brief scuffle and then admit himself in the cabin he needs to be restrained.
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Had he been successful his place in history would have been with people like mohammad atta and andreas lubitz. Plenty of people have breakdowns but how many attempt to commit a mass killing of strangers (and peers).

It’s a very sad situation, I emphasize with his family but given what he attempted to do I don’t see why it’s worth it to take the risk of him ever being a free person again. Actions have consequences.
 
MikeOH58 said:
Plenty of people have breakdowns but how many attempt to commit a mass killing of strangers (and peers).
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Well, actually, quite a lot I'd say. And many more who would aspire to do the same.

I also may be outspoken in my opinion of how many people should be locked up for life. It is many more than we have currently have, and for far lesser crimes.

edit: sorry bob, that was a late edit, I'm not sure if you agree with the second part too :)
 
///AMG said:
Other thing to think about, is that psychedelic "micro-dosing" for mental wellness/mental health issues, is very en vogue right now. Nicole Kidman starred in an entire miniseries about it a year or two ago. So it isn't a huge leap to think this guy could have been self medicating a legitimate mental health issue based on what he saw somewhere. Most of these people aren't doctors and have no idea what kind of dangerous BS they are peddling on vulnerable people who just want help. Again, don't know any more about this incident than any of you, but it is a thought. Drugs can hit mentally unstable people much differently than normally mentally functioning folks. My wife's cousin smoked pot one time.....one time......in college, and went into a months long mental episode (basically full blown psychosis for several weeks) where he was involuntarily hospitalized. I think he was ultimately diagnosed with depression, and that was many years ago. Has recovered and lives a very full and happy life today. I know that sounds like some ridiculous Nancy Reagan BS, especially given the drug in question, but it really happened. It just really had an incredibly unpredictable and profoundly long lasting effect on his brain.
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On that front, micro-dosing is legit science and has shown to help numerous PTSD patients. There are some great reads on how the research was banned during the 'moral majority' years, but has gained steam again as of late. Under clinical terms with trained professionals I'm all for it in helping those who have suffered. It's also shown to been helpful for end of life patients and managing their pain and wellness.
 
I just don’t see it at the same level. He basically said I need help.

Facts show, pulling the fire handles was immediately restored by the FO. There was a “brief” scuffle. And then he left the flight deck. If I had to bet, neither pilot got out of their seat to get this guy out. It sounds like he left on his own accord and then went in the back and said he needs to be restrained.


I still think the media is blowing this way up then what it is.

For a MX taxi, I’ve pulled the fire handle up to kill the engine. I was surprised just how long things lasted. Electrics, hydraulic, and even when fuel was cut off, it leads me to believe in flight as long as you restore the handle in a timely , you’ll still be fine and it’ll be normal engine ops.


There was a Delta (or AirTran?) crew that had an iPad behind the throttles of a 717 and at one point with power coming back, dislodged the iPad and turned both engine switches off. The pilots caught it and re-stored the switches. Engines were fine.
 
bike21 said:
On that front, micro-dosing is legit science and has shown to help numerous PTSD patients. There are some great reads on how the research was banned during the 'moral majority' years, but has gained steam again as of late. Under clinical terms with trained professionals I'm all for it in helping those who have suffered. It's also shown to been helpful for end of life patients and managing their pain and wellness.
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I agree with all of this.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I just don’t see it at the same level. He basically said I need help.

Facts show, pulling the fire handles was immediately restored by the FO. There was a “brief” scuffle. And then he left the flight deck. If I had to bet, neither pilot got out of their seat to get this guy out. It sounds like he left on his own accord and then went in the back and said he needs to be restrained.


I still think the media is blowing this way up then what it is.

For a MX taxi, I’ve pulled the fire handle up to kill the engine. I was surprised just how long things lasted. Electrics, hydraulic, and even when fuel was cut off, it leads me to believe in flight as long as you restore the handle in a timely , you’ll still be fine and it’ll be normal engine ops.


There was a Delta (or AirTran?) crew that had an iPad behind the throttles of a 717 and at one point with power coming back, dislodged the iPad and turned both engine switches off. The pilots caught it and re-stored the switches. Engines were fine.
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legitimate question, and this is hopefully not "SSI" :)

If you were to pull the handles and also blow the bottles, could the engine be restarted if the handle was reset? I don't think the answer is yes in other planes I've flown, at least not with any level of certainty (maybe if you windmilled it long enough?). Probably not a question that has much reason to have a book answer.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Not to mention, I don’t think murder or kill were his thoughts. He wanted to wake up from his dream like state. If you wanted to kill or bring the plane down, there are other more effective ways than pulling a fire handle.
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He had, I imagine, thousands of opportunities to successfully complete such an act, if he had truly wanted to. I don't really want to think how this would play out on a flight deck with just the two of you up there. It would be a fight to the death, if the controls weren't manipulated either intentionally or accidentally in the process, in a way that made the airplane unrecoverable.
 
Roger Roger said:
People like to mention this in various contexts but is this actually a thing? I mean sure individual nervous flyers are a thing but the general public? I don’t really buy it.
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Hot take here... but last time i was on AS I felt like people generally felt too at home and comfortable flying. Like it was their living room. If I have to sit next to another person clipping their toenails in flight or otherwise performing bodily hygiene functions I'll be praying for someone to pull the fire handles.
 
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