1500hrs quantity<quality

[tcco94]

I was just talking to some blue polo shirted ATP instructors the other day about this at my local airport. I was telling them at Colgan we used to hire at 250ish hours and they were shocked. Then they asked why it went to 1500. I said that was also a Colgan thing.

How do they not know? I mean I guess I understand people not knowing our industries history, but still kinda shocked (if said instructors want to go 121...If they don't then even more understandable)

 

[tcco94]

Isn’t cross-country time needed? I don’t see a Cessna 150 in the pattern or a skydive pilot getting any of that.

If you're a CFI there is an exemption in the FAR's for 50nm straight line and doesn't require a landing for a CFI to log X-country for purposes of ATP. A lot of people don't know that. Granted still difficult if you're only teaching one student on a 1 hour lesson.

 

[killbilly]

If you're a CFI there is an exemption in the FAR's for 50nm straight line and doesn't require a landing for a CFI to log X-country for purposes of ATP. A lot of people don't know that. Granted still difficult if you're only teaching one student on a 1 hour lesson.

I don't think that's a CFI-specific rule. It also doesn't have to be an airport - it can be a fix or something you can document - but to the point in question, it still needs to be 50nm. Doesn't do anything for teaching in the pattern.

I do keep a separate column in my logbook specifically for time/flights logged in this way in case it ever comes up. So far it's only 4.5 hours or so, but I periodically will fly a flight in my airplane that way, for exactly this reason.

EDIT: 61.1(b)(vi)

 

[BobDDuck]

Personally, it would bore me to death to fly my own airplane around in circles for over 1000 hours. But it would also bore me to death to fly sky divers for 1000 hours, or a pipeline route for 1000 hours. The common denominator is “repetitive” flying.

If your goal is the airlines, you'll have to come to terms with "repetitive" flying. Even at the biggest carriers, you'll still be limited to the fleet/domicile you are on, and the flying that place does. And the bigger the aircraft type, the fewer places you'll end up going. On a CRJ I flew into about 60 different airports (although, from a repetition point of view, half of them were Charlotte on any given day). On a 321 I went into about 12 different airports. Now on a widebody I have the option of 9 airports in the bid packet but my seniority only lets me see about 5 of them. That will change a bit once we restart full, international operations, but even then, due to bidding what works best for my QOL, I'll only see 4 airports a month mostly.

On the same note… none of the professions above allow a new hire or fresh graduate to “teach” others. Pilot training is the only profession that allows someone to teach a skill they literally just learned.

Grad Students working as TAs.

Personally, I hope this “shortage” forces the airlines to address pilot training between the 250-1500 hour gap. I still believe a regional pilot would be far more equipped if they had 1000 hours on their own, and 500 hours of pure sim/airline training. Fully immersed in 121 operations/training for 500 hours. Sure it would cost the airlines a ton of money. But they are already throwing money at bonuses and retentions.

I have no idea how much sim training costs; but by my calculations 500 hours divided by 8 hours per day (factoring days off) only equates to about 3 months of paid training. Regionals could get away with paying a pilot roughly $6000 during that “training” period.

Sims are for learning procedures, not skill sets. Even the best scripted LOFTs are nothing more than specific scenarios with specific learning validation objectives. 50 hours of sim time is more than enough for most people (even 250 hour wonders) to learn how to fly a plane. It's everything else that happens outside of "flying a plane" that you need to learn on your own in the 1500 hour work up to being eligible to get hired.

500 hours of sim time would be in chunks of 4 hours a day (you are pretty much brain dead after that) and 2 to 4 hours of pre brief and post brief. Almost all the contracts require two days off in 7 days, so you are looking at 25 weeks of training, or about 6 months. The cost of the pilot is pretty low with a new hire (6 months X 75 hour guarantee X $40/hr = $18,000), but you have to factor in fringe (like health care, travel benefits etc) at normally around 20% ($3600). All in you are looking at over 40K per crew. And that doesn't include the actual cost of operating the sim (cheaper for the old CRJ/ERJ sims, but can be more than $1000/hr for newer types), and the cost of instructors. Even if the sim/instructor costs are around $500/hr (which seems VERY cheap to me), you are still looking at a close to $300,000 per crew you put through.

 

[jtrain609]

On the same note… none of the professions above allow a new hire or fresh graduate to “teach” others. Pilot training is the only profession that allows someone to teach a skill they literally just learned. Its comical to me. I’m a training officer in Law Enforcement and I could never in a million years allow someone fresh out of the academy to immediately start teaching at the academy.

So, I've got bad news for you.

Application of See One, Do One, Teach One Concept in Surgical Training

The traditional method of teaching in Surgery is known as “See One, Do One, Teach One.” However, many have argued that this method is no longer applicable mainly because of concerns for patient safety. The purpose of this paper is to show ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[fholbert]

If you're a CFI there is an exemption in the FAR's for 50nm straight line and doesn't require a landing for a CFI to log X-country for purposes of ATP. A lot of people don't know that. Granted still difficult if you're only teaching one student on a 1 hour lesson.

I know there is a rule for those working on an ATP, if your a Commercial Pilot that would be the next step. But you do need to travel to a point 50 miles from your departure point. I used it when shooting approaches to a missed at airports 50 miles away and logged it as cross country.

 

[JordanD]

If you're a CFI there is an exemption in the FAR's for 50nm straight line and doesn't require a landing for a CFI to log X-country for purposes of ATP. A lot of people don't know that. Granted still difficult if you're only teaching one student on a 1 hour lesson.

That actually came in handy for me as a survey pilot, but more often than not you'd just land somwhere else and gas up before heading back to the airport you were basing out of. Pretty interesting story, supposedly that exemption comes from the bomber pilots during the Cold War that were basically flying halfway around the world but it wasn't "cross country" since they were landing at the same base they departed from.

 

[fholbert]

That actually came in handy for me as a survey pilot, but more often than not you'd just land somwhere else and gas up before heading back to the airport you were basing out of. Pretty interesting story, supposedly that exemption comes from the bomber pilots during the Cold War that were basically flying halfway around the world but it wasn't "cross country" since they were landing at the same base they departed from.

Reminds me of an old story when WWII pilots were still flying for the airlines. I've not heard it in years.

Munich Ground became frustrated with a US carrier getting lost on the taxiways.

Ground Control: Haven't you even been to Munich before?

Pilot: Several times. It was always dark and we never landed.

 

[tcco94]

I don't think that's a CFI-specific rule. It also doesn't have to be an airport - it can be a fix or something you can document - but to the point in question, it still needs to be 50nm. Doesn't do anything for teaching in the pattern.

I do keep a separate column in my logbook specifically for time/flights logged in this way in case it ever comes up. So far it's only 4.5 hours or so, but I periodically will fly a flight in my airplane that way, for exactly this reason.

EDIT: 61.1(b)(vi)

Ah, thanks. Yeah haven't opened a FAR in a few years but yeah won't help in pattern work obviously but can come in handy!

 

[tcco94]

I logged an unreal amount of X-country teaching IFR going to Stanfield VOR in Phoenix from Deer Valley. A lot of our instructors went way out of the way to do a landing until they learned about that.

 

[killbilly]

I logged an unreal amount of X-country teaching IFR going to Stanfield VOR in Phoenix from Deer Valley. A lot of our instructors went way out of the way to do a landing until they learned about that.

I often need to fly from VKX to JYO and back. It's well under 50NM. When my work schedule permits, I get the east-side transition from IAD to clear the SFRA to the north, fly over a fix that is both 50nm from VKX and convenient to JYO (there's quite a few) and re-enter under their maneuvering area code for landing. Reverse the process for the way home. If my work schedule doesn't permit the extra time, I just do it as a normal flight without the 50nm leg and chalk it up as a normal flight.

 

[BobDDuck]

I logged an unreal amount of X-country teaching IFR going to Stanfield VOR in Phoenix from Deer Valley. A lot of our instructors went way out of the way to do a landing until they learned about that.

Williams to Pinal was 50.2 miles. Almost every lesson consisted of doing airwork on the way down, a touch and go, and then airwork on the way home.

 

[Three Down and Locked]

Can't speak for all regionals but I know mine doesn't just hire anyone who can check a box. We do care where they built their time at. The ones who built their time flying around VFR in the pattern for 1500 hours will still get a call, but they'll have to prove themselves in the interview and then in the simulator, just like every other applicant. Someone with a poor background or excessive checkride failures isn't going to get the call. Our classes haven't always been full for that reason. The company isn't going to invest thousands of dollars in an applicant if they don't believe they can succeed.

CFIs who spent over 1200 hours keeping themselves and their students in controlled phases of flight and out of dangerous situations have a lot more experience than the 250 hour commercial pilots of the past. After spending hundreds of hours teaching students maneuvers in a single piston at low altitudes, and how to land, you simply have a better handle on flying the plane. Mistakes are made and you learn from them. There were quite a few instructors I knew who were weeded out either by realizing it wasn't for them, by the company employing them, or with a few blemishes winding up on their record. 1500 hours is a long time and takes reasonably at least a year and a half to accomplish. A lot can happen and a lot is learned during that time period. We never stop learning but those first hundreds of hours gaining a high level of respect for how an airplane behaves in different flight regimes produces a better pilot. As a CFI building hours, you are as much of a student of the profession as the one you are teaching, just at a higher level.

Of course there will always be a few who slip through the cracks or where the system fails them, that's true of any industry. I think the 1500 hour rule has made commercial aviation incredibly safer than it already was, particularly at the regional level. And the results speak for themselves.

I wish I could give this 10 likes...

 

[L-16B]

How do they not know? I mean I guess I understand people not knowing our industries history, but still kinda shocked (if said instructors want to go 121...If they don't then even more understandable)

When I was 22 I couldn’t tell you about regionals or crashes from 13 years ago…..

but I get your point.

 

[ahw01]

Williams to Pinal was 50.2 miles. Almost every lesson consisted of doing airwork on the way down, a touch and go, and then airwork on the way home.

Works in AZ but in Orlando FSDO they'd shave 0.3 off each flight logged as X-C as they said taxi time didn't count. Strange how things get made up...

 

[tcco94]

When I was 22 I couldn’t tell you about regionals or crashes from 13 years ago…..

but I get your point.

I guess I'm a nerd. I was more of an airline nerd though.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Works in AZ but in Orlando FSDO they'd shave 0.3 off each flight logged as X-C as they said taxi time didn't count. Strange how things get made up...

Wonder how much taxi time they would shave off my logbook, as tons of it is in gliders

 

[MikeD]

That actually came in handy for me as a survey pilot, but more often than not you'd just land somwhere else and gas up before heading back to the airport you were basing out of. Pretty interesting story, supposedly that exemption comes from the bomber pilots during the Cold War that were basically flying halfway around the world but it wasn't "cross country" since they were landing at the same base they departed from.

I think it finally came from the flight of Voyager in 1987, where they flew around the world nonstop. But as they departed from EDW and recovered to EDW, it wasn’t XC by the legal definition.

 

[MikeD]

I logged an unreal amount of X-country teaching IFR going to Stanfield VOR in Phoenix from Deer Valley. A lot of our instructors went way out of the way to do a landing until they learned about that.

curiously, how is it way out of the way to do a landing, when you’re doing holding and multiple instrument approaches from TFD into CGZ or P08? Seems like a landing, or multiple landings, would fit right into the flow of all of that.

 

[USMCmech]

On the same note… none of the professions above allow a new hire or fresh graduate to “teach” others. Pilot training is the only profession that allows someone to teach a skill they literally just learned. Its comical to me.

Medicine does exactly that, Attendings supervise residents, residents train interns, interns teach med students.