1500hrs quantity<quality

[mikecweb]

Thanks for the explanation. I occasionally have seen a go-around here in PHX. One time I was with a friend on the parking garage at SkyHarbor and he had a scanner. Tower told Southwest to go around because landing traffic was still on the runway. Tower gave Southwest the instructions to climb to an altitude, then gave a heading and told them to contact departure. Seemed simple enough, from listening to is over a scanner, thanks for the explanation letting me know that its not.

So there's not a whole lot to be learned from that except most likely the instructions were totally different from the miss approach instructions that were briefed. I've never executed a published missed approach in my career since instrument training.

We have a fairly eye opening incident involving a go-around that came very close to being horrific. I need to see how much is public info though

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

So there's not a whole lot to be learned from that except most likely the instructions were totally different from the miss approach instructions that were briefed. I've never executed a published missed approach in my career since instrument training.

We have a fairly eye opening incident involving a go-around that came very close to being horrific. I need to see how much is public info though

I would agree from my observations as well, that at least here in PHX, most missed approaches appear never be the published ones, and instead seem to be more akin to vectors.

 

[Fixtur]

I've missed 4 times this summer due to wx. Probably would have missed more if not for secondary mins.

 

[MikeD]

I would agree from my observations as well, that at least here in PHX, most missed approaches appear never be the published ones, and instead seem to be more akin to vectors.

For a go around from a visual approach where they’re keeping you in the radar pattern for vectors back to final, they are indeed just that, and normally will be in a terminal area. There’s no missed approach routing to a hold, nor is there any need for that. The go around instructions could even be as short as “go around, make right closed traffic” to enter a visual traffic pattern. In a case like that, TOGA really isn’t needed….no need for rocket-ship power and acceleration that the pilot is just going to have to remove anyway if only climbing to a traffic pattern altitude.

Either way, prior practice and maintaining a mental expectation for a go around, does pay off in lessening both the surprise factor as well as the complexity, thus reducing the “a-holes and elbows” it can become if not practiced/expected.

 

[MikeD]

You‘ve been flying in AZ for to long. I would assume most have had two MA’s due to WX on the same flight.

In the 737, I go all over the place, including many GA airports that don’t see any 121 service, much less any jet service. MAs are seemingly an overall rarity, as many have stated. Two in the same flight for Wx would be interesting for a transport category jet; i’ve done that in tactical jets in crap Wx and that was a pain even then. Definitely have done more visual go arounds than IMC missed approaches.

 

[mikecweb]

For a go around from a visual approach where they’re keeping you in the radar pattern for vectors back to final, they are indeed just that, and normally will be in a terminal area. There’s no missed approach routing to a hold, nor is there any need for that. The go around instructions could even be as short as “go around, make right closed traffic” to enter a visual traffic pattern. In a case like that, TOGA really isn’t needed….no need for rocket-ship power and acceleration that the pilot is just going to have to remove anyway if only climbing to a traffic pattern altitude.

Either way, prior practice and maintaining a mental expectation for a go around, does pay off in lessening both the surprise factor as well as the complexity, thus reducing the “a-holes and elbows” it can become if not practiced/expected.

Every airplane is different but not pressing "TOGA" is exactly what almost killed our crew and many others. Which adds another element of why go-arounds are an adventure, a bunch of ways to screw it up. And what works on Tuesday at one airport it's totally different that needs to be done on Wednesday at a different airport.

 

[jtrain609]

For a go around from a visual approach where they’re keeping you in the radar pattern for vectors back to final, they are indeed just that, and normally will be in a terminal area. There’s no missed approach routing to a hold, nor is there any need for that. The go around instructions could even be as short as “go around, make right closed traffic” to enter a visual traffic pattern. In a case like that, TOGA really isn’t needed….no need for rocket-ship power and acceleration that the pilot is just going to have to remove anyway if only climbing to a traffic pattern altitude.

Either way, prior practice and maintaining a mental expectation for a go around, does pay off in lessening both the surprise factor as well as the complexity, thus reducing the “a-holes and elbows” it can become if not practiced/expected.

You can't do a go around in the Airbus without going to TOGA thrust. The thrust levers are used the enter the go around phase of flight, as there is no TOGA button. Being in the wrong mode in the FMS produces poor outcomes, as Mike said earlier.

 

[BobDDuck]

You can't do a go around in the Airbus without going to TOGA thrust. The thrust levers are used the enter the go around phase of flight, as there is no TOGA button. Being in the wrong mode in the FMS produces poor outcomes, as Mike said earlier.

Do you guys not have Soft Go-Around on any of your Airbii? It's a pretty cool system. Still requires the thrust levers to move into TOGO to start the logic, but after that you pull them back to FLX/MCT and the computer generates a thrust that gives you 2000-2300 fpm.

Introduction to the Soft Go-Around Function | Safety First

The "all engines" go-around is a very dynamic procedure with high accelerations created by the application of TOGA thrust. Yet in-service experience has shown that as long as both engines are operating, a lower thrust can still be sufficient to perform a safe go-around.As a safety enhancement...

safetyfirst.airbus.com

All of that said, the closest I've come to dying in an airplane was during a go around in the CRJ.

 

[MikeD]

You can't do a go around in the Airbus without going to TOGA thrust. The thrust levers are used the enter the go around phase of flight, as there is no TOGA button. Being in the wrong mode in the FMS produces poor outcomes, as Mike said earlier.

I had thought that all Airbus had a soft go ability now? Or is that an option and not standard?

 

[BobDDuck]

I had thought that all Airbus had a soft go ability now? Or is that an option and not standard?

It was an option as of 3 years ago. Not sure if it's standard now. The early deliveries of our 321 fleet (18 aircraft arrived between 2017 and 2020) didn't come with it from the factory, but the later ones did.

 

[ASpilot2be]

It was an option as of 3 years ago. Not sure if it's standard now. The early deliveries of our 321 fleet (18 aircraft arrived between 2017 and 2020) didn't come with it from the factory, but the later ones did.

It's prohibited at our company. Not sure if we don't have it, or too lazy to not train it since a lot of our fleet might not have it installed.

 

[BobDDuck]

It's prohibited at our company. Not sure if we don't have it, or too lazy to not train it since a lot of our fleet might not have it installed.

We couldn't use it until the whole fleet had it.

 

[ASpilot2be]

We couldn't use it until the whole fleet had it.

That's probably what we're waiting on.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

For a go around from a visual approach where they’re keeping you in the radar pattern for vectors back to final, they are indeed just that, and normally will be in a terminal area. There’s no missed approach routing to a hold, nor is there any need for that. The go around instructions could even be as short as “go around, make right closed traffic” to enter a visual traffic pattern. In a case like that, TOGA really isn’t needed….no need for rocket-ship power and acceleration that the pilot is just going to have to remove anyway if only climbing to a traffic pattern altitude.

Either way, prior practice and maintaining a mental expectation for a go around, does pay off in lessening both the surprise factor as well as the complexity, thus reducing the “a-holes and elbows” it can become if not practiced/expected.

You're right, depending on which runways are in use. If its west operations, its an immediate climbing right turn and vectors leading you around Camelback Mountain, getting you back in the pattern for landing back on 26 or the 25's. If east ops are in affect its the same, but a left turn to get you around Camelback, setting you up for another attempt on the the 7's or rwy 8.

 

[jtrain609]

Do you guys not have Soft Go-Around on any of your Airbii? It's a pretty cool system. Still requires the thrust levers to move into TOGO to start the logic, but after that you pull them back to FLX/MCT and the computer generates a thrust that gives you 2000-2300 fpm.

Introduction to the Soft Go-Around Function | Safety First

The "all engines" go-around is a very dynamic procedure with high accelerations created by the application of TOGA thrust. Yet in-service experience has shown that as long as both engines are operating, a lower thrust can still be sufficient to perform a safe go-around.As a safety enhancement...

safetyfirst.airbus.com

All of that said, the closest I've come to dying in an airplane was during a go around in the CRJ.

I had thought that all Airbus had a soft go ability now? Or is that an option and not standard?

Only a small handful of the fleet has it. NEO's going forward will all have it, but I'd have to look back to see if we're retrofitting it.

 

[ClearedForOption]

Because missed approaches are always a goat rope in the real world.

JFK should be briefed: This is the published missed approach, which matches what's in the box. However we should expect a climb and heading as assigned by tower as the actual published missed approach procedure hasn't been flown by anyone in the real world since JFK was President.

Occasionally I'll do a last minute 'review' of the go-around sequence of events.... just in case. Once in recent memory it came in handy when we had to go around. (traffic seperation if I remember correctly...) I've done more go arounds during the COVID recovery than in the 3 years leading up to it.

 

[NovemberEcho]

The only airport I’ve given published missed (aside from when requested) is TEB rwy’s 19 and 24 because they are specifically designed to keep you clear of the EWR final. I can’t issue a heading because you need to level at 1500’ and the MVA is 2000. It gets screwed up about 60% of the time.

 

[roundout]

Can you or anyone explain why?

Startle event, disuse, uhhh....we (at the airline level) brief and set up whatever is published but they always seem to give you instructions with a different altitude, a heading, and a frequency all in very rapid succession, which is hard to comprehend while you're trying to make sure you manage the airplane properly to not overspeed the flaps or cook the engines.

 

[roundout]

It's prohibited at our company. Not sure if we don't have it, or too lazy to not train it since a lot of our fleet might not have it installed.

Some do, some don't, hence the prohibition.

 

[flybywp]

Medicine does exactly that, Attendings supervise residents, residents train interns, interns teach med students.

It amazes me how many people don't realize this. There are a lot of similarities to climbing your way through an MD/DO profession and becoming a professional pilot. Start out with years and years of school/training, come out of school making very little money working lots of hours and paying your dues, then finally reaching a professional level with lucrative income potential.