The Pilot Shortage -Managements Fault?

[Soku39]

Oh yeah, I don't disagree with this at all.

What I'm more talking about is the lifestyle. Some guys CANNOT STAND being away from home, and think that magically when they get to mainline they'll fly day trips to exotic destinations where the beer flows like wine. There are guys hired at Airways and Delta who are on the 190 and 717 who are doing the exact same flying I'm doing right now, and are probably going to be shocked when they move from an RJ to a slightly larger RJ to find that it's the exact same job, doing the same shuttle flights.

You'll still get re-routed, you'll still work 4 days and you'll still have to deal with the captain that grunts when you ask him if he likes stuff.

I guess what I'm saying is that you either dig the airline lifestyle or you don't. Me? I don't mind going out and doing 4-5 days worth of work at a time. My family deals with it pretty well too. Commuting? It gets frustrating sometimes, but it's never made me want to hang myself (except when I was commuting between DTW and ORD, that was horrible).

The thing is, at mainline even on the 717 at Delta flying Asheville and Norfolk turns you can still control you schedule. You can drop what you need, you can add what you need. I have a friend who is on reserve on the MD at Delta, he's like 2 from the bottom (exaggeration, but you get what I mean) and he can pref reserve trips to overnight where he lives (CMH), and he gets them all the time. When flying somewhere like CAE and ILM they stay in the nicest hotel in town. Not being tortured at the La Quinta by the airport with the only options for food being a Subway and a Buger King would certainly help stomach those overnights. We were in the squadron at the military job and one day he was showing me everything he can do to his schedule even while sitting lowest of the low reserve and my jaw absolutely dropped. I was in complete in utter shock I didn't realize just how different it was and I had already been flying for a regional for 2 years at that point.

Oh and the best thing even if the job was exactly the same, You're still making 120 grand to deal with it, the job is more secure, even if you're flying shuttle flights now, that doesn't mean you wont be on the bus flying to California, sitting for 18 hours flying back and being done for the week in 2 years. Oh and by the way you don't have to worry about losing your planes to another, cheaper bottom feeder.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

The thing is, at mainline even on the 717 at Delta flying Asheville and Norfolk turns you can still control you schedule. You can drop what you need, you can add what you need. I have a friend who is on reserve on the MD at Delta, he's like 2 from the bottom (exaggeration, but you get what I mean) and he can pref reserve trips to overnight where he lives (CMH), and he gets them all the time. When flying somewhere like CAE and ILM they stay in the nicest hotel in town. Not being tortured at the La Quinta by the airport with the only options for food being a Subway and a Buger King would certainly help stomach those overnights. We were in the squadron at the military job and one day he was showing me everything he can do to his schedule even while sitting lowest of the low reserve and my jaw absolutely dropped. I was in complete in utter shock I didn't realize just how different it was and I had already been flying for a regional for 2 years at that point.

Oh and the best thing even if the job was exactly the same, You're still making 120 grand to deal with it, the job is more secure, even if you're flying shuttle flights now, that doesn't mean you wont be on the bus flying to California, sitting for 18 hours flying back and being done for the week in 2 years. Oh and by the way you don't have to worry about losing your planes to another, cheaper bottom feeder.

Well, not yet, anyway.

But yes, it is a night and day difference in terms of working conditions.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I still look up when I hear a plane overhead

Yeah, so do I. And you know what? It's better looking up than looking down. I wouldn't go back for seven figures a year.

 

[flyingbum]

Yeah, so do I. And you know what? It's better looking up than looking down. I wouldn't go back for seven figures a year.

That there be some high standards bro.

Smart man says, "It's not about the money, It's about the lifestyle."

 

[Blackhawk]

Oh yeah, I don't disagree with this at all.

What I'm more talking about is the lifestyle. Some guys CANNOT STAND being away from home, and think that magically when they get to mainline they'll fly day trips to exotic destinations where the beer flows like wine. There are guys hired at Airways and Delta who are on the 190 and 717 who are doing the exact same flying I'm doing right now, and are probably going to be shocked when they move from an RJ to a slightly larger RJ to find that it's the exact same job, doing the same shuttle flights.

You'll still get re-routed, you'll still work 4 days and you'll still have to deal with the captain that grunts when you ask him if he likes stuff.

I guess what I'm saying is that you either dig the airline lifestyle or you don't. Me? I don't mind going out and doing 4-5 days worth of work at a time. My family deals with it pretty well too. Commuting? It gets frustrating sometimes, but it's never made me want to hang myself (except when I was commuting between DTW and ORD, that was horrible).

I've told the story on this board before. Years ago I flew with an FO who complained the entire time. At one point he told me he hated being a student pilot. Being a CFI was horrible. Flying 135 was a drag. He detested being a regional FO. But by golly, when he moved across the ramp and was issued his double breasted jacket things would be different.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I've told the story on this board before. Years ago I flew with an FO who complained the entire time. At one point he told me he hated being a student pilot. Being a CFI was horrible. Flying 135 was a drag. He detested being a regional FO. But by golly, when he moved across the ramp and was issued his double breasted jacket things would be different.

The amount you are paid, and a few other things are, but more or less, if you sat down with the old man and I, well, yeah, it's the same job. The amount of butt hurt may vary considerably, and the amount of said job you do will vary, but is same job.

You'd better like flying airplanes. (That's the saving grace of the current "death by four day" schedules I've had lately--the flying is still fun, even if Edmonton sucks.)

 

[etflies]

Oh yeah, I don't disagree with this at all.

What I'm more talking about is the lifestyle. Some guys CANNOT STAND being away from home, and think that magically when they get to mainline they'll fly day trips to exotic destinations where the beer flows like wine. There are guys hired at Airways and Delta who are on the 190 and 717 who are doing the exact same flying I'm doing right now, and are probably going to be shocked when they move from an RJ to a slightly larger RJ to find that it's the exact same job, doing the same shuttle flights.

You'll still get re-routed, you'll still work 4 days and you'll still have to deal with the captain that grunts when you ask him if he likes stuff.

I guess what I'm saying is that you either dig the airline lifestyle or you don't. Me? I don't mind going out and doing 4-5 days worth of work at a time. My family deals with it pretty well too. Commuting? It gets frustrating sometimes, but it's never made me want to hang myself (except when I was commuting between DTW and ORD, that was horrible).

Ah, gotcha. That I definitely agree with. I enjoy the lifestyle overall, I'd just rather have more of a balance to it.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I stumbled across another article discussing the pilot shortage and another theory of why America has less pilots in general, and less deciding to make it into a career. The main premise - lack of respect from management/CEO's and their answer of using more 'discipline' in operations, as a misnomer almost.

https://disciplesofflight.com/pilot-shortage-where-did-pilots-go/

Pilot shortage... ... ZZZZZZ... Oh, sorry. What?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Ah, gotcha. That I definitely agree with. I enjoy the lifestyle overall, I'd just rather have more of a balance to it.

This.

(Miss the Brophus yet?)

 

[Mark815]

Lawyers walk out of law school with around $150,000 of debt on average, an are walking into jobs with an average of $62,000 a year. Oh and they work 80 hours a week. My 5 on 4 off schedule is a vacation in comparison, and I don't even have that good of a schedule.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/

We're underpaid, but we're not the only underpaid profession.

I totally agree we're not the only ones, but when that lawyer gets experience, it's experience that becomes worth more and more with time. He can negotiate salary as time goes on. If my company goes away tomorrow, my thousands of hours mean nothing because I'll just be a FNG again on the bottom of a long list. I can't go to an airline and sell myself, because there's no selling. It's take it or leave it.

A major airline job has the same problems as a regional, you're just paid better to deal with it.

It's a hard reality to accept that it's like this forever, but an airline is an airline. If you hate the life, you'll hate it at mainline too.

I really have to disagree. A major airline job may have similar problems, but not the same. No way. The close friends I have at mainline can drop trips, they don't have to fight to correct a paycheck, they're not being threatened with disciplinary action by scheduling when they try to force you to do something not in the contract. From everything I see from the sidelines, the most common complaint I hear is that "It isn't what it used to be" (whatever that means) and the crew meals are bad.

I like the life of an airline pilot. Show up, no boss around, fly for a few days and go home after you set the brake. It's easy, definitely the easiest aviation job I've had so far. If I was making major airline money I wouldn't complain because at least the income would be worth the BS. However at the regional level you get abused, your QOL can be garbge AND you don't get paid. It's a lose lose lose IMO.

 

[Blackhawk]

I totally agree we're not the only ones, but when that lawyer gets experience, it's experience that becomes worth more and more with time. He can negotiate salary as time goes on. If my company goes away tomorrow, my thousands of hours mean nothing because I'll just be a FNG again on the bottom of a long list. I can't go to an airline and sell myself, because there's no selling. It's take it or leave it.





I really have to disagree. A major airline job may have similar problems, but not the same. No way. The close friends I have at mainline can drop trips, they don't have to fight to correct a paycheck, they're not being threatened with disciplinary action by scheduling when they try to force you to do something not in the contract. From everything I see from the sidelines, the most common complaint I hear is that "It isn't what it used to be" (whatever that means) and the crew meals are bad.

I like the life of an airline pilot. Show up, no boss around, fly for a few days and go home after you set the brake. It's easy, definitely the easiest aviation job I've had so far. If I was making major airline money I wouldn't complain because at least the income would be worth the BS. However at the regional level you get abused, your QOL can be garbge AND you don't get paid. It's a lose lose lose IMO.

I'm not at a major and I can drop trips. I'm not threatened with disciplinary action by scheduling. I talked to the chief FA and got my FA's hotel rooms in "domicile" when we extended for a trip. Next month I make guarantee working 12 days. Even including the bonus paid at some of the competition my pay scale as a captain is higher.
Of course, my regional is bad because it has slow upgrades and that is all that matters.

 

[Itchy]

I think the industry as a whole, and pilots both share blame. Industry for pimping and pilots for buying it. I was just was talking to a RJ captain who had his base moved 7 times in 8 years. Coupled with dirt pay for the first few years, why bother? Smart folks who are trying to figure out what career to chase catch on to these sort of things....

 

[jtrain609]

Am I the only pilot whose paycheck is correct every month?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Am I the only pilot whose paycheck is correct every month?

No.

Stuff that you would call "grievances" aside, which are few and far between, mine has been correct all but two pay periods at the Mormon Air Force.

 

[ppragman]

No.

Stuff that you would call "grievances" aside, which are few and far between, mine has been correct all but two pay periods at the Mormon Air Force.

I have literally never had a paycheck be wrong as long as I've been in aviation. Others not so much.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I have literally never had a paycheck be wrong as long as I've been in aviation. Others not so much.

This ain't Colgan.

Both times were just a genuine, human-error "goof," and both times it involved the application of our somewhat arcane (= more manual) reserve credit determination system. (We have since automated that, apparently, although I haven't been on reserve to find out.)

 

[jwp_145]

No.

Stuff that you would call "grievances" aside, which are few and far between, mine has been correct all but two pay periods at the Mormon Air Force.

Is that SKW?

I've found that by and large, a man is in control of whether or not he is happy... it's not dependant on the company. I fly with some captains who have throbbing neck veins by the time we start up the 2nd engine but think things are gonna be so much better once they move onto Delta as part of the SSP. I fly with other guys who are so laid back they are nearly going in reverse, and they couldn't care any less if they move up to DAL.

Me, I just like my job. Occasionally it is the shytts, and sometimes I get tired of scheduling jacking with me, but I generally like what I do and wouldn't trade it for a desk job for any reasonable amount of money. I have enough money to pay all my bills and generally buy something if I want it, I get to see some interesting places, and I have a pretty good photo archive built up.

 

[jwp_145]

This ain't Colgan.

Both times were just a genuine, human-error "goof," and both times it involved the application of our somewhat arcane (= more manual) reserve credit determination system. (We have since automated that, apparently, although I haven't been on reserve to find out.)

Are you at 9E?
We've recently had an issue with how the company is determining min day credit. SOmething about "average min day" or whatever... I guess the union has gotten it corrected.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Is that SKW?

Yes.

I've found that by and large, a man is in control of whether or not he is happy... it's not dependant on the company. I fly with some captains who have throbbing neck veins by the time we start up the 2nd engine but think things are gonna be so much better once they move onto Delta as part of the SSP. I fly with other guys who are so laid back they are nearly going in reverse, and they couldn't care any less if they move up to DAL.

I occasionally have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees, as it were, especially when my life is an endless slog of 4-2-4-2-4...

Then I remember:
(1) I love flying airplanes.
(2) I generally like the people I work with.
(3) I have already had a series of "real" jobs outside of aviation - thanks, no thanks.
(4) I don't think I'm paid enough, or get enough time off, or WORK WORK WORK scheduling WORK WORK WORK PBS work work work (...) but generally, they uphold their end, and pay and treat me as they have 'agreed' they would pay and treat me.
(5) The rest of the world is 5 on, 2 off, 5 on, 2 off, and while they may get to sleep in their own beds every night, it's really not all that great at all.

So, um, well. It's at will employment. If you are no longer willing, then stop being employed.

Me, I just like my job. Occasionally it is the shytts, and sometimes I get tired of scheduling jacking with me, but I generally like what I do and wouldn't trade it for a desk job for any reasonable amount of money. I have enough money to pay all my bills and generally buy something if I want it, I get to see some interesting places, and I have a pretty good photo archive built up.

I mean, basically that.

(And I always comply with FARs re: PWCDs/sterile cockpit/photography etc.! )

Are you at 9E?
We've recently had an issue with how the company is determining min day credit. SOmething about "average min day" or whatever... I guess the union has gotten it corrected.

PinnaColaba neither.

 

[ctab5060X]

A major airline job has the same problems as a regional, you're just paid better to deal with it.

It's a hard reality to accept that it's like this forever, but an airline is an airline. If you hate the life, you'll hate it at mainline too.

Regionals and mainline fly airplanes.

And that is where the similarities really stop.

I'll restate what I wrote earlier in this thread. Night and Day.

I haven't had a single problem at mainline that was a near weekly issue at a regional.

Some of you say the lifestyle is the same and if you hate it a regional, you'll hate it at mainline. This might be true to a certain extent, but the overall lifestyle is slightly different. I fly mostly 4-day trips, but I would hardly consider them "death by 4-day". Even the bad shuttle trips.

Yes, the pay is much better, but so are the hotels, the length of the layovers, the support staff working "behind the curtain", etc.