German Wings A320 crashed

[Stone Cold]

Typical uniformed response of "meeting deadly force with deadly force."

There is no solution to it. The call was clearly for a mental man who was not on his meds. A screw driver is dangerous, but two grown men could easily have stepped back and tazed/maced him.

Please let us know when and where your security or police training was done.


Before you say it, I'm not saying you can't have an opinion...I'm saying you have an uneducated opinion on deadly force and tazers, and overall security. I don't fault the police at all. He had a deadly weapon in close proximity, and was "mental and off his meds". I wasn't there, and neither were you, but I would have been more primed in that situation also.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Please let us know when and where your security or police training was done.


Before you say it, I'm not saying you can't have an opinion...I'm saying you have an uneducated opinion on deadly force and tazers, and overall security. I don't fault the police at all. He had a deadly weapon in close proximity, and was "mental and off his meds". I wasn't there, and neither were you, but I would have been more primed in that situation also.

You were the wrong response then, too. The real victim was the family. Lesson learned though. Get a club bouncer or someone. Don't call the police. They'll be "primed" like you said, and be VERY likely to shoot the mentally disturbed individual.

 

[MikeD]

Always funny to see pilots criticize the uninformed (insert derogatory name here) non-pilots in the media or on blog sites or comment sections of news stories, who comment on what/how the pilots should've done something or some action differently when there's an aircraft accident/incident.

"Those stupid people who aren't even pilots, who are they and what qualification/training/experience do they have in what I do to judge anything regarding this?!?!"

Ironic.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Always funny to see pilots criticize the uninformed (insert derogatory name here) non-pilots in the media or on blog sites or comment sections of news stories, who comment on what/how the pilots should've done something or some action differently when there's an aircraft accident/incident.

"Those stupid people who aren't even pilots, who are they and what qualification/training/experience do they have in what I do to judge anything regarding this?!?!"

Ironic.

Meh. Patrick Cherry being the latest example. There's a right way to do something and a wrong way.

As for the pilot on TV syndrome, I tend to just roll my eyes and leave them be. In the end they collect their appearance fees and the news media outlets don't care about realism. They want sensationalism to boost ratings.

 

[MikeD]

There's a right way to do something and a wrong way.

Again, pilots judging how LE should do their job in specific situations, with no background on the matter; is the exact same thing pilots bitch, whine, and cry about whenever someone who isnt a pilot or isnt the same kind of pilot dares to criticize them or their actions, especially post accident/incident.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Again, pilots judging how LE should do their job in specific situations, with no background on the matter; is the exact same thing pilots bitch, whine, and cry about whenever someone who isnt a pilot or isnt the same kind of pilot dares to criticize them or their actions, especially post accident/incident.

Are you saying Patrick Cherry's case was good? Justified to threaten arrest?


Edit: Flying is skill-specific. You either are a pilot or not. And then each specific jet has its own type rating so you either know that particular aircraft or not. Boeing guys on TV saying the Germanwings set a lower altitude and hit the square FLCH button are factually incorrect.

For the police, lets be honest and say it doesn't take a great matter of educational knowledge to become an officer. Many have that authoritarian personality to them once the badge and gun are strapped on. But when a cell phone video shows clear case of abuse, then there really isn't much water the officer can stand on. Oh boo hoo you had to see a sick colleague at the hospital. Still doesn't justify screaming, cussing, and threatening arrest to a very calm individual. And if you are that distressed a colleague is sick in the hospital, turn in the badge and gun and take a personal leave until getting better.

Many people are familiar or know with the deadly force concept and what the IDOL concept is.

 

[MikeD]

Are you saying Patrick Cherry's case was good? Justified to threaten arrest?

I'm talking the use of force incident and how persons armed with a screwdriver and within a few feet of you appear to be no threat at all in any way, according to some.

 

[PositionAndHold]

So can just two hands, unarmed.

The call was for a mentally disturbed man who was off his meds. Surely someone other than two uniformed thugs with itchy fingers could have shown up.

Lesson learned though. I don't, but if I had a mentally disturbed individual in my family, I would never call the police.

It's called the 21 foot rule and has been taught extensively to LE agencies through out the country. Some people are starting to take a fresh look at the science behind it but it's still a pretty sound theory. It basically says that it takes an average officer 21 feet to draw and fire his weapon to defend against an edge weapon attack. I'm not speaking to this case, just trying to give you some background on the training most officers receive. Here's a video that demonstrates the 21 foot rule.



Unfortunately crazy people with weapons can still make you just as dead as "sane" ones. You are right, it should have never got to a call for service from the police, the call should've been to mental health professionals days/weeks/months prior. By the time the police are called they're not there to diagnose what's exactly mentally wrong with a person. They are there to keep people from hurting each other, the public and other first responders. It's kind of like if your airplane catches fire. We don't really care why it's on fire, we just have to use the tools and our training to try to put the fire out and get the airplane on the ground as fast as possible. We can figure out the what and why it happend once we are alive and every one is safe.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I'm talking the use of force incident and how persons armed with a screwdriver and within a few feet of you appear to be no threat at all in any way, according to some.

No it's a threat still. But a gun shouldn't have been the first thing used. There's a reason why stun and mace exist.

But as usual, they'll get off scotch free because it was a lethal force met with lethal force.

The educational lesson here being that officers are trained to use lethal force for just about any conceivable weapon. So once again, if one has a mental individual off their meds as a family member in their home, do not call the police. There are other, safer options.

 

[mshunter]

Oh so now people give a crap if the pilots are happy...

No. They ask questions to determine if they're happy. And based on the response determines if they get off or not. They still don't give a crap because were all rich and overpaid.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It's called the 21 foot rule and has been taught extensively to LE agencies through out the country. Some people are starting to take a fresh look at the science behind it but it's still a pretty sound theory. It basically says that it takes an average officer 21 feet to draw and fire his weapon to defend against an edge weapon attack. I'm not speaking to this case, just trying to give you some background on the training most officers receive. Here's a video that demonstrates the 21 foot rule.



Unfortunately crazy people with weapons can still make you just as dead as "sane" ones. You are right, it should have never got to a call for service from the police, the call should've been to mental health professionals days/weeks/months prior. By the time the police are called they're not there to diagnose what's exactly mentally wrong with a person. They are there to keep people from hurting each other, the public and other first responders. It's kind of like if your airplane catches fire. We don't really care why it's on fire, we just have to use the tools and our training to try to put the fire out and get the airplane on the ground as fast as possible. We can figure out the what and why it happend once we are alive and every one is safe.

I've seen the 21 foot video.

Here are real life 21 foot videos:



and




I like the "boo ya!" after the Albuquerque cop shoots him dead. Albuquerque is probably the worse police department for itchy fingers. I believe it was after that incident the FBI investigated them for excessive use of force.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

NYPD. Tried shooting first. 3 shots fired at target. All three missed. 2 shots hit innocent bystanders (luckily they lived). Eventually, they used a taser to subdue him.

 

[PositionAndHold]

I've seen the 21 foot video.

Here are real life 21 foot videos:



and




I like the "boo ya!" after the Albuquerque cop shoots him dead. Albuquerque is probably the worse police department for itchy fingers. I believe it was after that incident the FBI investigated them for excessive use of force.

Edit to add: Those aren't 21 foot rule instances. No one was charging and the cops already had their weapons deployed. I'm not sure why in either case they didn't use a less than leathal round. At least in the second video they had them deployed already.

Again. I'm not trying to pick and choose cases that are justified or not. I'm also not saying all cops are great people. Some are pieces of crap and give the men and women who are out there day after day doing good work a bad name. I'm just trying to give you some back ground. Hate the cops all you want. Fine by me. They are not all bad.

I also worked at a rather large department in California. It wasn't just a bunch of dummies getting hired. It took about 3-4 months from start of the procees to the end. We had a ten year background check similar to a top secret clearance. 800 question psych eval and interview with the dept psych doc. A polygraph test. Etc. It was much easier when I got hired at XJT. Went and peed in a cup and I was good to go. Yes they do a small background to make sure what you put on your app is correct. I do know there are some departments in rural areas that don't put such a standard on hiring practices and don't receive any where near the training that other departments do.

 

[AAPalmTree]

It's called the 21 foot rule and has been taught extensively to LE agencies through out the country. Some people are starting to take a fresh look at the science behind it but it's still a pretty sound theory. It basically says that it takes an average officer 21 feet to draw and fire his weapon to defend against an edge weapon attack. I'm not speaking to this case, just trying to give you some background on the training most officers receive. Here's a video that demonstrates the 21 foot rule.



Unfortunately crazy people with weapons can still make you just as dead as "sane" ones. You are right, it should have never got to a call for service from the police, the call should've been to mental health professionals days/weeks/months prior. By the time the police are called they're not there to diagnose what's exactly mentally wrong with a person. They are there to keep people from hurting each other, the public and other first responders. It's kind of like if your airplane catches fire. We don't really care why it's on fire, we just have to use the tools and our training to try to put the fire out and get the airplane on the ground as fast as possible. We can figure out the what and why it happend once we are alive and every one is safe.

Cops are slackers

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Again. I'm not trying to pick and choose cases that are justified or not. I'm also not saying all cops are great people. Some are pieces of crap and give the men and women who are out there day after day doing good work a bad name. I'm just trying to give you some back ground. Hate the cops all you want. Fine by me. They are not all bad.

I also worked at a rather large department in California. It wasn't just a bunch of dummies getting hired. It took about 3-4 months from start of the procees to the end. We had a ten year background check similar to a top secret clearance. 800 question psych eval and interview with the dept psych doc. A polygraph test. Etc. It was much easier when I got hired at XJT. Went and peed in a cup and I was good to go. Yes they do a small background to make sure what you put on your app is correct. I do know there are some departments in rural areas that don't put such a standard on hiring practices and don't receive any where near the training that other departments do.

Oh ok, I didn't realize you were an officer. I see your point too. It's just unfortunate the things that have happened. But then I also realize that many officers have to put up with aboslute garbage from the lowest and worst of society. In some ways one might even wonder why they don't flip a lid more often. And for those who still keep themselves in control and checked, I say kudos.

But come on, you can't use California as an example Remember Donner? And what about the LAPD officer still on the run after killing someone when off duty.

 

[MikeD]

For the police, lets be honest and say it doesn't take a great matter of educational knowledge to become an officer.

Many people are familiar or know with the deadly force concept and what the IDOL concept is.

Sure, dealing with public/people in general and day to day is something anyone should be able to do. The skill-specific part of LE, is handling the unusual and potentially dangerous situations , and the split-second changes that can occur, while preserving your life first, then the life of the suspect as best as reasonably possible.

No it's a threat still. But a gun shouldn't have been the first thing used. There's a reason why stun and mace exist.

But as usual, they'll get off scotch free because it was a lethal force met with lethal force.

The educational lesson here being that officers are trained to use lethal force for just about any conceivable weapon. So once again, if one has a mental individual off their meds as a family member in their home, do not call the police. There are other, safer options.

I don't know which police department you train with for your use of force training, but the training isn't to use deadly force whenever and wherever, but to use it when necessary. And that's entirely subjective. Sometimes use of force starts at deadly, sometimes it starts at less-lethal. It depends on the totality of the circumstances.

We medevac'd a BP agent a few months back who was solo out in the field like they all operate....middle of the desert. Barely alive. Came across a group of illegals, one of whom was a felon with numerous warrants out for his arrest. A surveillance camera out in the field caught video of the fight in progress when the felon resisted arrest, the surveillance video feeding back to the station. This guy kept attempting less-lethal force....mace and baton...against an unarmed felon who was bigger than him and beating on him, eventually with a large rock. Bashed the agents head in, broke both eye sockets and left him for dead in the desert before responding units could arrive. Deadly force should've been used long ago, but we think the newer agent was afraid to use it against an "unarmed" individual until it was too late for him.

That felon should've been dead 1 minute into the 10+ minute physical fight.

Not everything is as black and white as you'd like to make it CC. And yes, dealing with when things goes wrong DOES require brains and technical training.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Sure, dealing with public/people in general and day to day is something anyone should be able to do. The skill-specific part of LE, is handling the unusual and potentially dangerous situations , and the split-second changes that can occur, while preserving your life first, then the life of the suspect as best as reasonably possible.



I don't know which police department you train with for your use of force training, but the training isn't to use deadly force whenever and wherever, but to use it when necessary. And that's entirely subjective. Sometimes use of force starts at deadly, sometimes it starts at less-lethal. It depends on the totality of the circumstances.

We medevac'd a BP agent a few months back who was solo out in the field like they all operate....middle of the desert. Barely alive. Came across a group of illegals, one of whom was a felon with numerous warrants out for his arrest. A surveillance camera out in the field caught video of the fight in progress when the felon resisted arrest, the surveillance video feeding back to the station. This guy kept attempting less-lethal force....mace and baton...against an unarmed felon who was bigger than him and beating on him, eventually with a large rock. Bashed the agents head in, broke both eye sockets and left him for dead in the desert before responding units could arrive. Deadly force should've been used long ago, but we think the newer agent was afraid to use it against an "unarmed" individual until it was too late for him.

That felon should've been dead 1 minute into the 10+ minute physical fight.

Not everything is as black and white as you'd like to make it CC. And yes, dealing with when things goes wrong DOES require brains and technical training.

In that case, yes. Deadly force should have been used sooner.

In this Dallas case? Their response was all wrong. They started yelling from the get go to drop the screw driver. Yelling at someone off their meds usually doesn't go well. The police should never been sent for this call.

 

[PositionAndHold]

Oh ok, I didn't realize you were an officer. I see your point too. It's just unfortunate the things that have happened. But then I also realize that many officers have to put up with aboslute garbage from the lowest and worst of society. In some ways one might even wonder why they don't flip a lid more often. And for those who still keep themselves in control and checked, I say kudos.

But come on, you can't use California as an example Remember Donner? And what about the LAPD officer still on the run after killing someone when off duty.

I was hired as a deputy, got hurt after almost completing the academy. Spent the rest of my time in the jail working as a Corrections Officer for eight years. The situations inside a jail are generally different as we only have less than lethal (that were kept locked away, no one carries weapons in the jail) and no guns are allowed in at any time. We almost always had the luxury of time when some one was barricaded in a cell/section.

There are the 2% that give everyone a bad name. Yes those two cops were/are mentally ill and managed to slip through the cracks. Very similar to what the thread started out talking about We're all people that are subject to mistakes no matter what our profession.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

FBI entrapment scenario almost went bad...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/isis-inspired-women-arrested-nyc-allegedly-build-bomb/story?id=30064961

"
It’s unclear exactly why the two were arrested this morning. But court documents say Siddiqui “recently” suggested they each work on their own plans for jihad. And in November, Velentzas became suspicious that they may be working with an undercover agent. She then conducted research online, trying to determine whether the person they were dealing with was actually any FBI agent, court documents say.
"

 

[ChasenSFO]

I'm talking the use of force incident and how persons armed with a screwdriver and within a few feet of you appear to be no threat at all in any way, according to some.

I see that it's a threat. And like you laid out, I have no LEO experience. What I don't see is why when it is a weapon that can only do damage with physical contact unlike a gun or an crossbow, why a gun would be the weapon of choice to stop the assault rather than a tazer, night stick, or pepper spray when physically stopping the guy from closing any more distance is seemingly all it would take to eliminate the threat of getting stabbed.

I'm actually asking because I would like to hear it from someone who knows what they're talking about and learn something, not because I intend to keep pushing the issue. That being said, my hero has always been my grandfather who spent 30 years as a cop and was very proud that he had been able to use a club or pepper spray to stop multiple attempted assaults on himself and other officers rather than having to take a life. But, he retired in 1970, was a WWII Marine, and was kind of crazy(in a good way). Things have surely changed a lot since then for LEOs, but I'd really like to know why so many of these instances that look like they could have been resolved without the loss of human life lead to something like this when the officer is armed with non-lethal weapons and, in cases like the screwdriver video, have other officers to assist.