AF447 Vanity Fair article

[MikeD]

The aircraft aren't usable again after a hand flown visual approach.

That said... RIP to the 3 whales. There will be one more heading out your way later this month.

If H46Bubba can pass me the arrival date/time again for this next one, I'll be there for photos.

 

[wheelsup]

Sorry to go back a few pages... side effect of being several time zones behind the rest of the civilized world.

Hacker, the issue is that in the military you guys train the hell out of pattern work. I flew to Kona 3 time on Wednesday and the same P3 was there the whole time doing practice approaches to a few turns in the pattern and then back out to radar again. For several hours. Over and over and over. Same thing happens with C17s and the F22s and the KC135s and KC10s out here. I used to watch Harriers and KC135s do hours of pattern work at Willie when I was instructing there. Over and over and over.

You know how many visual approaches (from a downwind) I've done in the plane that I just hit 1000 hours in? Two. That's it. I've done a whole bunch of "base to final" sorts, but keep in mind too, I'm in an operation that does way more visual flying than almost any other 121 airline out there. We (121) just don't ever practice (in the sim and nobody in 121 is doing in aircraft training now) visual approaches. That's why, when we get them for real, even if we have thousands of hours of 172 time in the pattern to fall back on, it's a much harder maneuver than a straight in ILS, for us.

You're absolutely right about the pattern work. I used to live under Oceana's pattern, I had to wear ear plugs to walk my dog. They would go around and around for hours.

1000 hours! Holy heck how long have you been there? I'm coming up on 8 months and I haven't even hit 150.

 

[BobDDuck]

You're absolutely right about the pattern work. I used to live under Oceana's pattern, I had to wear ear plugs to walk my dog. They would go around and around for hours.

1000 hours! Holy heck how long have you been there? I'm coming up on 8 months and I haven't even hit 150.

I've been on the line for 14 months now. And it was actually 800... Not 1000. I was looking at the wrong thing.

EDIT: And in those 800 hours I have had 560 landings!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So much so that, had they scratched paint, it'd be time to sue Boeing for their failure to implement appropriate autoland technology. You're going to excuse us all out of jobs. Plus (imho) kill a lot of people and break some airplanes. If you're afraid of a visual approach, you should go make a lot of money doing something else. Hey, wait a minute...

Yeah, that automation has been a killer!

 

[Boris Badenov]

Heh, strawman much?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Well, it's not even a real word. It's two words, cleverly mashed together. But I believe this not-a-word refers to responding to someone as though they were making an argument which they weren't making. Which you were. Doing.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I responded directly to your silly argument.

So much so that, had they scratched paint, it'd be time to sue Boeing for their failure to implement appropriate autoland technology. You're going to excuse us all out of jobs. Plus (imho) kill a lot of people and break some airplanes.

A reference to automation, claiming that it would put pilots out of jobs, and then claiming that someone who supports increased use of automation is going to "kill a lot of people."

Nope, no strawman. Your argument is just ludicrous beyond belief. I can see why you're trying to back away from it, given the hard data.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Remember all... AF strongly teaches their pilots to always have the automation on, and the PF was just a cruise pilot. 447 happened- the PF had very poor pitch/power understanding of the aircraft and pulled back to 17 degrees nose up at FL350. Neither pilot recognized the highly abnormal pitch attitude.

What you don't see in the news is that DL had the exact same malfunction in an A330. The AP kicked off... they simply just flew the airplane with good pitch/power technique.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

I watched a Delta 747 the other day enter the traffic pattern on the 45 at an uncontrolled field that has no instrument approaches, fly a downwind/base/final visually, and land successfully. And with all the correct radio transmissions too. Was i watching some kind of emergency procedure being accomplished?

How are you guys jumping from the visual approach being more difficult than an ILS to a visual being an emergency procedure? No one here has suggested that professional pilots shouldn't be able to fly visuals.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

How are you guys jumping from the visual approach being more difficult than an ILS to emergency procedure? No one here has suggested that professional pilots shouldn't be able to fly visuals.

The testosterone in here is so deep I need waders. The hand flying circle jerk in the other thread is even worse.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I responded directly to your silly argument.



A reference to automation, claiming that it would put pilots out of jobs, and then claiming that someone who supports increased use of automation is going to "kill a lot of people".

I don't think you read that correctly.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Oh, I think I did. But we can wait until Vegas for me to tell you in person how wrong you are.

 

[Boris Badenov]

How are you guys jumping from the visual approach being more difficult than an ILS to a visual being an emergency procedure? No one here has suggested that professional pilots shouldn't be able to fly visuals.

No one is suggesting that a licensed driver shouldn't be able to park a car, either. But ask someone whether they want to ride with someone who'd "feel more comfortable" with letting the car do it.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Oh, I think I did. But we can wait until Vegas for me to tell you in person how wrong you are.

Straight off the balcony, ATN_PILOT! Then we'll see if you REALLY know how to fly!

 

[wheelsup]

No one is suggesting that a licensed driver shouldn't be able to park a car, either. But ask someone whether they want to ride with someone who'd "feel more comfortable" with letting the car do it.

I guarantee a computer could parallel park a car way better than 99.99999% of humans, measuring with a quantifiable set of standards. Ie, distance from curb, centered between cars forward and back, etc.

 

[wheelsup]

Remember all... AF strongly teaches their pilots to always have the automation on, and the PF was just a cruise pilot. 447 happened- the PF had very poor pitch/power understanding of the aircraft and pulled back to 17 degrees nose up at FL350. Neither pilot recognized the highly abnormal pitch attitude.

What you don't see in the news is that DL had the exact same malfunction in an A330. The AP kicked off... they simply just flew the airplane with good pitch/power technique.

That's 'cause Delta pilots are fricking awesome! And given the chance, they'll tell you that. Over and over.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I guarantee a computer could parallel park a car way better than 99.99999% of humans, measuring with a quantifiable set of standards. Ie, distance from curb, centered between cars forward and back, etc.

I'd guarantee that 99.99999*9*% of humanity would rather have you do it. Drunk. And blindfolded.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Plus, of course, the real point...the parameters you mention can't be reliably measured, transcribed, encoded, and acted upon. Maybe someday. Not before we're all long dead, though.

 

[wheelsup]

Plus, of course, the real point...the parameters you mention can't be reliably measured, transcribed, encoded, and acted upon. Maybe someday. Not before we're all long dead, though.

It's getting to the point where they can. That's what makes computers so good at operating a motor vehicle. Small little sonar sensors on the front, back, and sides and presto it has enough info to act on.

They currently sell those sonar sensors for an inexpensive amount to help r/c planes conduct auto landings with the autopilots engaged.