Virgin America Pilot Pay Increase

The real power has never been with the unions. It is in the pilots themselves. Save/look out for others and you save and are looked out for yourself. Even if you lose, you have taken your stand, kept your dignity, made your point and that means something. And being in unity does mean just during a crisis. It means being in unity across the board at all times. It is not and never has been all about you. It's how everything affects all pilots. THAT is the mentality that will serve you better. It's what you do and how you encompass/embrace the entire profession which matters.

Once you realize/recognize all the psychological corporate tricks that management pulls on their employees, and why this is done ( the longer and the more ways they find of putting you through the b.s.), and you don't understand it, rise above it and keep ypur head clear and certain, the more you might begin to believe it, give up, march in lockstep, cave and start to doubt your own worth/abilities/experience as a professional. It also leads to squabbling, finger pointing, separation and dissension among different pilots groups. Everything they do, is to demean your self worth and your job and often to just distract you. I don't care what the hell they say to the contrary, this is the truth.

You can never allow management or even your own union to diminish, placate you or serve you up what is second best. You deserve better. Be the best at what you do every single day on the line and demand the respect and recognition for this, not only for yourself, but for ALL of your brothers and sisters and do it for your entire career. Stop division amongst the ranks. Treat everyone with respect and don't ever allow others to disrespect you or your co-workers.
 
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You guys should have at least gotten the new B6 A320 pay rates. We even fell short, IMO, of industry average. Partly because they changed the rules of what defined "industry average" and brought said average down to closer to what they wanted to pay rather than what the 4th grade math showed. You guys got our E190 rates give or take a couple of bucks.....
 
kellwolf said:
You guys should have at least gotten the new B6 A320 pay rates. We even fell short, IMO, of industry average. Partly because they changed the rules of what defined "industry average" and brought said average down to closer to what they wanted to pay rather than what the 4th grade math showed. You guys got our E190 rates give or take a couple of bucks.....
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I agree with you.
 
For those waving the Delta pay rate flag, I'm curious why the selective stance?

Delta's PWA has a published CRJ-900 rate yet the Delta Air Lines pilot seniority list has zero pilots on the CRJ-900, instead, they are all opearted by Endeavor Air types who fly it for Delta at half the cost of the PWA list. Where's the outcry here? Delta brough in some 50 seater flying but exanded CRJ-900 aircraft to more regionals. On the other hand, you have a LCC get a payraise and the best response is "it's not Delta rates"? Yes they are not Delta rates, but neither are JetBlue, Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier, and Sun Country. None of them have Delta/United rates and none of them anytime soon will be obtaining those kinds of rates.

In the passenger part 121 airline model in this country, we have three different tiers. The third tier is the entry-level regional airline level. This is the lowest paying and and an entry level job in which pilots launch their careers. Next are the second tier airlines which are the LCC/Majors. These carriers are relatively newer, VX in 2007, Jetblue in 2000, Frontier (new F9) in the 90s, Spirit in the 80s, etc. These airlines pay a lot more than regionals, but pay lower than legacies. Virgin, Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant, and Sun Country all very small airlines with between 15-60 airplanes. Lastly, the first tier airlines are the legacies, Delta/American/United. They make revenue in the billions each quarter (let alone 1 billion for one year). Their financial strength is far greater than any LCC at the moment. So for those reasons, Delta/United/American are the creme of the crop for wages, which are backed by decades of fleet growth, route maturation, domestic and interanational feed.

You have to make comparisons at the respective third, second, and first tier airline. You cannot see Delta wages at a newer airline that is also small in size. Sun Country is an example, and you can use Virgin too. I'll throw Frontier into the mix as well. The most robust of LCCs by far is Jetblue, in terms of fleet numbers, route structure, domestic/international markets, and revenue generation. Even Jetblue could not come close to legacy Delta/AA/United wages. Lets keep the comparisons "fair."
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
For those waving the Delta pay rate flag, I'm curious why the selective stance?

Delta's PWA has a published CRJ-900 rate yet the Delta Air Lines pilot seniority list has zero pilots on the CRJ-900, instead, they are all opearted by Endeavor Air types who fly it for Delta at half the cost of the PWA list. Where's the outcry here? Delta brough in some 50 seater flying but exanded CRJ-900 aircraft to more regionals. On the other hand, you have a LCC get a payraise and the best response is "it's not Delta rates"? Yes they are not Delta rates, but neither are JetBlue, Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier, and Sun Country. None of them have Delta/United rates and none of them anytime soon will be obtaining those kinds of rates.

In the passenger part 121 airline model in this country, we have three different tiers. The third tier is the entry-level regional airline level. This is the lowest paying and and an entry level job in which pilots launch their careers. Next are the second tier airlines which are the LCC/Majors. These carriers are relatively newer, VX in 2007, Jetblue in 2000, Frontier (new F9) in the 90s, Spirit in the 80s, etc. These airlines pay a lot more than regionals, but pay lower than legacies. Virgin, Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant, and Sun Country all very small airlines with between 15-60 airplanes. Lastly, the first tier airlines are the legacies, Delta/American/United. They make revenue in the billions each quarter (let alone 1 billion for one year). Their financial strength is far greater than any LCC at the moment. So for those reasons, Delta/United/American are the creme of the crop for wages, which are backed by decades of fleet growth, route maturation, domestic and interanational feed.

You have to make comparisons at the respective third, second, and first tier airline. You cannot see Delta wages at a newer airline that is also small in size. Sun Country is an example, and you can use Virgin too. I'll throw Frontier into the mix as well. The most robust of LCCs by far is Jetblue, in terms of fleet numbers, route structure, domestic/international markets, and revenue generation. Even Jetblue could not come close to legacy Delta/AA/United wages. Lets keep the comparisons "fair."
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I disagree, I blame Colgan.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
For those waving the Delta pay rate flag, I'm curious why the selective stance?

Delta's PWA has a published CRJ-900 rate yet the Delta Air Lines pilot seniority list has zero pilots on the CRJ-900, instead, they are all opearted by Endeavor Air types who fly it for Delta at half the cost of the PWA list. Where's the outcry here? Delta brough in some 50 seater flying but exanded CRJ-900 aircraft to more regionals. On the other hand, you have a LCC get a payraise and the best response is "it's not Delta rates"? Yes they are not Delta rates, but neither are JetBlue, Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier, and Sun Country. None of them have Delta/United rates and none of them anytime soon will be obtaining those kinds of rates.

In the passenger part 121 airline model in this country, we have three different tiers. The third tier is the entry-level regional airline level. This is the lowest paying and and an entry level job in which pilots launch their careers. Next are the second tier airlines which are the LCC/Majors. These carriers are relatively newer, VX in 2007, Jetblue in 2000, Frontier (new F9) in the 90s, Spirit in the 80s, etc. These airlines pay a lot more than regionals, but pay lower than legacies. Virgin, Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant, and Sun Country all very small airlines with between 15-60 airplanes. Lastly, the first tier airlines are the legacies, Delta/American/United. They make revenue in the billions each quarter (let alone 1 billion for one year). Their financial strength is far greater than any LCC at the moment. So for those reasons, Delta/United/American are the creme of the crop for wages, which are backed by decades of fleet growth, route maturation, domestic and interanational feed.

You have to make comparisons at the respective third, second, and first tier airline. You cannot see Delta wages at a newer airline that is also small in size. Sun Country is an example, and you can use Virgin too. I'll throw Frontier into the mix as well. The most robust of LCCs by far is Jetblue, in terms of fleet numbers, route structure, domestic/international markets, and revenue generation. Even Jetblue could not come close to legacy Delta/AA/United wages. Lets keep the comparisons "fair."
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Ehh, you might want to work on some of your timeline and try that again.

Don't go into law! Ha!
 
Derg said:
Ehh, you might want to work on some of your timeline and try that again.

Don't go into law! Ha!
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What timeline was inaccurate?

VX started flying Aug 2007. JetBlue's first was Feb 2000 with service to BUF and FLL. Frontier commenced operations July 1994. We were talking about today's current Frontier, not the original. This newer one from the 90s. And Spirit started in the 80s as Charter One. What was the part of this timeline you had an issue with? My point was these are all relatively newer, from 7 years of age to about 20-30 years old. This makes up the bulk of the LCC/Majors today.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
What timeline was inaccurate?

VX started flying Aug 2007. JetBlue's first was Feb 2000 with service to BUF and FLL. Frontier commenced operations July 1994. We were talking about today's current Frontier, not the original. This newer one from the 90s. And Spirit started in the 80s as Charter One. What was the part of this timeline you had an issue with? My point was these are all relatively newer, from 7 years of age to about 20-30 years old. This makes up the bulk of the LCC/Majors today.
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I don't give a poop about any of the above.

I do, however, do give a poop about your quote below:

For those waving the Delta pay rate flag, I'm curious why the selective stance?

Delta's PWA has a published CRJ-900 rate yet the Delta Air Lines pilot seniority list has zero pilots on the CRJ-900, instead, they are all opearted by Endeavor Air types who fly it for Delta at half the cost of the PWA list. Where's the outcry here? Delta brough in some 50 seater flying but exanded CRJ-900 aircraft to more regionals. On the other hand, you have a LCC get a payraise and the best response is "it's not Delta rates"? Yes they are not Delta rates, but neither are JetBlue, Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier, and Sun Country. None of them have Delta/United rates and none of them anytime soon will be obtaining those kinds of rates.
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Derg said:
I do, however, do give a poop about your quote below:
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I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with what he said.

A 100 airplane company (whether it be a regional or a Airbus operator like Spirit/JetBlue/Frontier) is not Delta or United or American. If guys are going to complain that those Airbus places aren't up to the Delta Airbus payrates, they probably should be complaining that Endeavor Skywest and Mesa or whomever is flying 900s now aren't up to Delta 900 payrates.

Keep in mind, that argument gets used at the table in negotiations by the union all the time when trying to refute a management team including those "smaller" carriers in a payrate comparison to push wages down.
 
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