Virgin America Pilot Pay Increase

ATN_Pilot said:
Some people are in perfect control of what comes out of their mouth, but they disagree with your silly idea that you need to mask the truth in order to be "professional." A scumbag should be called a scumbag. A deadbeat should be called a deadbeat. And so on. There is no redeeming quality in sugarcoating things.
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Namecalling shows you have nothing left to offer except personal insults. When one runs out of facts to use in an argument, they resort to insults.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Are you serious?! It was concessionary jets-for-growth no matter which way you look at it. "Trade" is hardly the right word to use here. And regional flows to mainline? I guess 9E pilots also traded some pay for path to Delta, right? :rolleyes:
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Namecalling shows you have nothing left to offer except personal insults. When one runs out of facts to use in an argument, they resort to insults.
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Sometimes it's just frustration and then apathy when you realize the other guy is a brick wall.

You two have some fundamental disagreements, and it's over points and examples you're either wrong about, purposefully obtuse because you think it helps your argument and you think no one will notice, or in one instance I can see you have an honest differing opinion. Of course that's just page 11 of this thread, so maybe if I dig back far enough... nah.
 
trafficinsight said:
Off topic maybe but I always laugh a bit when the "this community has gone downhill" thing comes up, because usually its because someone isn't winning an argument.

Its a community and communities change. People come and go, some who went come back, and others don't. That's just how it is. If the community is no longer doing it for you, well...

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In this case, it really doesn't have anything to do with someone losing an argument. Yes, communities change, people come and go. People mature, grow and even regress a bit as time goes on as well. I still stand by what I said. Maybe it isn't "doing it for me" anymore. I can tell ya, though, it's more than just me and the guys in this thread that have noticed the paradigm shift.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Sometimes it's just frustration and then apathy when you realize the other guy is a brick wall.

You two have some fundamental disagreements, and it's over points and examples you're either wrong about, purposefully obtuse because you think it helps your argument and you think no one will notice, or in one instance I can see you have an honest differing opinion. Of course that's just page 11 of this thread, so maybe if I dig back far enough... nah.
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In any case, while you and others may disagree with what I write, I'm respectful enough to use mature language and not personal insults. Personally attacking someone with insults goes nowhere and not the proper way for discourse.
 
BobDDuck said:
I don't think ALPA has a PR problem. I think they have a policy problem in that they don't ban everybody in a leadership role from posting their own personal opinions via social media and forums without writing a huge disclaimer that says THIS IS MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION AND ALPA AS A WHOLE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE THE SAME VIEW.

But then again, ALPA has had a communications problem for a while now and is only just starting to get out of the stone age of comm so I'm not really surprised. @surreal1221
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Lemme explain a little bit more about what I mean. ALPA sometimes does a good job of getting the message out. Sometimes, they do a HORRIBLE job of it. They try to portray themselves as different from management with 100% of your best interest involved, unless your best interest doesn't align with the majority, then they'll try to make it seem that way to get your vote anyway. That's what the last Pinnacle vote looked like from the outside looking in. In the post-analysis, a lot of guys felt they were snowed by their own union to get it passed. That's a problem.

Flip onto the organization side of things. ALPA will do a great job of laying out the pros of being union while downplaying a lot of the cons, or at least explaining how the pros outweigh them. Then someone stands up and says they still think we'd be better off non-union. Then the person representing ALPA will shoot their whole argument in the foot by calling the person "stupid." "misguided" or "selfish." THIS is a PR problem. Guys like that shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the union. They should be in a back room someone doing some other kind of union work. When I was at Pinnacle, the going line was "shut up with your complaining or volunteer your time. These guys work hard." Well, that's a GREAT way to make your membership feel valued and appreciated. THAT'S a PR issue. Eventually, you treat enough guys like crap, you find yourself wondering how you got in the middle of decertification drive or why your union drive failed when the numbers showed it should have passed. I'd wager a lot of Delta guys didn't just up and decide they wanted to try to get ALPA ousted.

I still think the union vote here is gonna be closer than most people think it will. Believe me, if ALPA winds up on property, it's not gonna be because we WANT them here. It'll be because management has mangled things so badly that we had to unionize and had no other options.
 
kellwolf said:
In this case, it really doesn't have anything to do with someone losing an argument. Yes, communities change, people come and go. People mature, grow and even regress a bit as time goes on as well. I still stand by what I said. Maybe it isn't "doing it for me" anymore. I can tell ya, though, it's more than just me and the guys in this thread that have noticed the paradigm shift.
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Actually I have no idea who's winning this particular argument argument, or what its all about really. I'm just not a fan of statements like yours.

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trafficinsight said:
Actually I have no idea who's winning this particular argument argument, or what its all about really. I'm just not a fan of statements like yours.

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I call it like I see it. Place isn't the same it was 5 years ago. If you're happy with that, fine. Just makes me shake my head in sorrow for how things used to be. Maybe I'm just getting old.
 
BobDDuck said:
I don't think ALPA has a PR problem. I think they have a policy problem in that they don't ban everybody in a leadership role from posting their own personal opinions via social media and forums without writing a huge disclaimer that says THIS IS MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION AND ALPA AS A WHOLE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE THE SAME VIEW. But then again, ALPA has had a communications problem for a while now and is only just starting to get out of the stone age of comm so I'm not really surprised. @surreal1221
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They'll never really leave the stone age. While I like the fact their are 20+ year communication veterans that bring a lot of experience, they are behind the times on utilizing social media and other advanced tools to their full benefit.

I did my part. Too bad it didn't work out. The organization will succeed or fail on their communication plan and philosophy. My money is on failure at this point.
 
surreal1221 said:
I did my part. Too bad it didn't work out. The organization will succeed or fail on their communication plan and philosophy. My money is on failure at this point.
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Your best is all you can do and give. Whether the organization succeeds or fails is indeed on those items you point out. Sometimes, an organization is its own worst enemy.....whether or not it 1. figures that out, and 2. fixes it before the ship sinks, is the only question. And that concept can apply to any number of organization types.
 
Maurus said:
Surprisingly I now know I either never had SJS or I grew out of it before going to a jet. Jets are BORING. I have DTS instead.
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I think they make a pill for that. I shouldn't of sold my option on the TTx. 8(
 
@ATN_Pilot

My comment about 9E MEC vs Seggy came straight from the mouth of "vice chair" JK. I guess I should take it with a grain of salt, since he was busy removing his wedding ring at the bar to hit on chicks but... I digress.

I don't agree that 9E ALPA post Todd was as effective / good as when you were here.

How else can you explain picketing the first 900 delivery, then bidding it? We didn't have a pay rate. We were explicitly told to not bid it.

SE, to his CREDIT, is a better grievance chair than D "lostyourgrievance" T ever will be.

Btw... ALPA = politics.

"Hey everyone, come out and vote for pre-merger 9E reps so evil XJ guys don't get voted in".

"I don't answer calls from other pre-merger groups".

Just sayin...'


I like ALPA the concept. I'm impressed they got back to me when I emailed national. MEC level left a lot to be desired.
 
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