Virgin America Pilot Pay Increase

amorris311 said:
Didn't CCAir not have their contract signed by national because it was thought to lower the bar?

I know you are going to ask me where is CCAir now but it's a legitimate question.
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Yes CCAir didn't have the contract signed.

CCAir is part of Mesa.

I like how you claim I dodge questions but you don't address mine. Very difficult to set a 'hard floor' when the company can declare bankruptcy and set the floor themselves. Over and over and over again.

Sounds like you need to be sent pronto to ALPA's Negotiation Seminar.
 
Seggy said:
Yes CCAir didn't have the contract signed.

CCAir is part of Mesa.

I like how you claim I dodge questions but you don't address mine. Very difficult to set a 'hard floor' when the company can declare bankruptcy and set the floor themselves. Over and over and over again.

Sounds like you need to be sent pronto to ALPA's Negotiation Seminar.
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Ok. Why don't I just get you on skype so I can ask you (all knowing that you are) about anything I have a question about.
 
amorris311 said:
Do you agree that there should be a hard floor in which certain contracts should abide by?
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No. Bad idea. Hard floors tend to become management targets. Set the floor at $50/hr, and that's all you'll ever make. Management will argue to the NMB that the union set the floor because they apparently considered it to be acceptable, so they shouldn't be required to pay more than what the union considers an acceptable rate.
 
amorris311 said:
Didn't CCAir not have their contract signed by national because it was thought to lower the bar?

I know you are going to ask me where is CCAir now but it's a legitimate question.
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Common misconception. Captain Woerth didn't make a judgment call about how much it was lowering the bar. He didn't sign the agreement because the CCAir MEC didn't follow required bargaining policy. ALPA bargaining policy prohibits concessionary bargaining if management refuses to show you the proof that the concessions are necessary for the company to help pull itself out of a hole. Ornstein refused to show the MEC any numbers or other proof to justify his demands, but the MEC negotiated a concessionary agreement anyway. If you don't follow policy, the President can't sign your agreement.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No. Bad idea. Hard floors tend to become management targets. Set the floor at $50/hr, and that's all you'll ever make. Management will argue to the NMB that the union set the floor because they apparently considered it to be acceptable, so they shouldn't be required to pay more than what the union considers an acceptable rate.
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@amorris311 needs to go to ALPA Negotiating Class.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It's a very simple concept, really. The bigger the airplane, the more responsibility you have and the more revenue that you produce. Pretty much every industry pays more for more responsibility or more revenue produced. Ours is no different.
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I get the concept, I just disagree.

I would argue that the number of warm bodies in the cabin does not change a pilot's responsibility at all. A RJ pilot's actual job duties are not measurably different than a mainline domestic flight. I will grant that international flying is an entirely different issue.

The pilots have no ability to control how much revenue is produced on a given flight, so why do they get rewarded/punished for conditions outside their control. I remember a BA 777 that flew across the pond with 12 pax due to a scheduling glitch.


I know this argument is pointless because the system is what it is, but I would like to see all domestic jet flying should be paid the same regardless of number of seats, or whose name is beside the door.
 
USMCmech said:
The pilots have no ability to control how much revenue is produced on a given flight, so why do they get rewarded/punished for conditions outside their control. I remember a BA 777 that flew across the pond with 12 pax due to a scheduling glitch.
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With few exceptions, the bigger airplane will still produce more revenue. As a 767 pilot, I have no problem at my company being paid less than a 747 pilot*; we carry 100,000 lbs of payload, and they carry 200,000. However, the goal is to bring up both 747 and 767 rates to acceptable levels.

*Unless it's out of seniority. @Polar742 knows what I'm talking about. Rabble.
 
Derg said:
As long as we bring it UP rather than average it all out.
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Funny you chimed in. Quick glance at section 3 in your PWA (contract for everyone else @mikecweb) there are bigger pay rates for planes that carry fewer passengers. What's up with that? :)

Please take as sarcasm. I know it has to do with image.
 
amorris311 said:
Funny you chimed in. Quick glance at section 3 in your PWA (contract for everyone else @mikecweb) there are bigger pay rates for planes that carry fewer passengers. What's up with that? :)

Please take as sarcasm. I know it has to do with image.
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Totally. It's fun watching some of my new coworkers go to "The Dark Side(tm)" when I ask how come the 330-300 pays less than the 777 when the 330 carries more pax? :) It's hilarious and generally evokes a SLI BitchFest.
 
Seggy said:
@amorris311 needs to go to ALPA Negotiating Class.
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I've never been to a formal negotiating class. Just spent years actually doing it under the tutelage of Yoda York. :)

Bargaining is complex. That's why we use professionals, and why pilots on a "Stop the Whipsaw" Facebook page or some such nonsense should probably let the professionals do their jobs.
 
If you see the red-headed ALPA attorney around Herndon, she makes a delicious turkey chili.
 
USMCmech said:
I would argue that the number of warm bodies in the cabin does not change a pilot's responsibility at all.
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Really? Because I would argue that 300 dead people is a lot worse than 50 dead people. Granted, neither is good, but one is certainly worse than the other.

The pilots have no ability to control how much revenue is produced on a given flight, so why do they get rewarded/punished for conditions outside their control.
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It's not about "reward." It's not commission. It's just a simple fact that you can't pay an employee $100k if he only produces $90k in company earnings. You're paid based on what you produce. And pilots produce ASMs.
 
amorris311 said:
Funny you chimed in. Quick glance at section 3 in your PWA (contract for everyone else @mikecweb) there are bigger pay rates for planes that carry fewer passengers. What's up with that? :)

Please take as sarcasm. I know it has to do with image.
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Not image, but what is defined as "Super Premium Flying"TM

Derg said:
Totally. It's fun watching some of my new coworkers go to "The Dark Side(tm)" when I ask how come the 330-300 pays less than the 777 when the 330 carries more pax? :) It's hilarious and generally evokes a SLI BitchFest.
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Probably a good thing I'm not on the 330. I'd be throwing hand grenades left and right just to try and invoke some senior pilot stroke outs. Thin the herd.
 
Cptnchia said:
Not image, but what is defined as "Super Premium Flying"TM
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GROAN!

Aye yi yi. Campsterdam and the Club Narita. Oh yeah, sign me… umm… up. #overThat

Probably a good thing I'm not on the 330. I'd be throwing hand grenades left and right just to try and invoke some senior pilot stroke outs. Thin the herd.
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I'm working on it! I'm the "Well actually" guy over on the 330 group on FB when some of the people get a little 'heady'. You know, pilots bid Boeings, but God comes from the heavens and declares "Habemus Papam!" when thee feels you are worthy and ready for entry into the Knights Templar of Airbussity.

So I have to mess with 'em. I love saying something snarky followed by "OMG! Who let this SOUTH guy in?" :)
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Really? Because I would argue that 300 dead people is a lot worse than 50 dead people. Granted, neither is good, but one is certainly worse than the other.
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Sure the body count will be higher in a wide-body crash, but the pilot's responsibility to his passengers doesn't change if he has 1 or 100.
 
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