Guess they didn't learn the first time.. Delta's new KSEA-PAJN run.

[Roger Roger]

IF they have a good enough approach - otherwise there will be reliability issues, and it doesn't matter how cheap the ticket is, locals won't buy. Miss enough cruise ship connections by going missed and the tour companies won't book either.

With the kind of money and manpower delta can throw at it, plus their worldwide expertise in designing RNP stuff, I'm sure if they get serious about it they'll be able to build an approach that at least equals what AS can do. What exactly their plans are considering this is going to be seasonal service, I doubt anyone outside of delta management can say at this point.

 

[Seggy]

IF they have a good enough approach - otherwise there will be reliability issues, and it doesn't matter how cheap the ticket is, locals won't buy. Miss enough cruise ship connections by going missed and the tour companies won't book either.

Once again, don't you think Delta already knows this?

 

[ppragman]

Once again, don't you think Delta already knows this?

They may, they may not, I don't work for them. Last time around they left a real sour taste in a lot of people's mouth that still resonates today - which is by-and-large what this whole thread was about in the first place.

 

[PositionAndHold]

If I understand the Alaska Salties on this one, their complaint isn't that Delta are a bunch of amateurs who are going to decorate the landscape with 737s. It's that Seggy singlehandedly turned a minor pissing-contest about a couple of airlines and their relative merits in to a major one about how he knows just exactly what every type of flying ever done under the sun is like, and really it would be best for everyone involved if they just stopped with their silly "been there, done that" and started listening to his hierophantic knowledge from On High about how everyone should operate every airplane ever built, because, you know, he flew turboprops in the most ILS-saturated part of the United States and even got some ice on his wings a few times!

I'm no expert, but that seems like a legit complaint to me. I mean, I've done some flying that other people think is Hardcore. And it mostly wasn't, yeah. But I reckon I know more about it than someone who hasn't done it, or anything like it. Which is why I have a "listen and learn" attitude towards Alaska flying. You put me up there and I very likely couldn't tell my ass from my elbow. Why is this hard for people to admit?

This. Exactly. At least you got him to respond with a roll eyes or whatever. Is said it earlier, this kind of thing seems to happen more frequent these days.

 

[A Life Aloft]

This. Exactly. At least you got him to respond with a roll eyes or whatever. Is said it earlier, this kind of thing seems to happen more frequent these days.

And it grew very old a while back. Now it's just predictable and dreaded. The eye roll is really what others are doing each time he starts up yet again. Well and this.....

 

[Boris Badenov]

This. Exactly. At least you got him to respond with a roll eyes or whatever. Is said it earlier, this kind of thing seems to happen more frequent these days.

Well, I mean, the other side of it is that if I ever slime-trail my way in to 121, I want to fly with Seggy. I'm sure he'd have a lot to teach me about how that kind of flying works. Might even keep me from killing my dumb self. I just don't understand where people find this necessity to have a giant Ego about what they do to earn money. There are a billion thing I don't know how to do. Getting the opportunity to learn how to do another one (or even talk intelligently about it) strikes me as a great thing. You just have to first admit that there's some stuff that you don't know. I've gotten myself some practice on that!

 

[Seggy]

This. Exactly. At least you got him to respond with a roll eyes or whatever. Is said it earlier, this kind of thing seems to happen more frequent these days.

What @Boris Badenov and the other Alaska folks are missing/ignoring is that the conditions in Alaska they describe in the bush, aren't different than those based in the 48 deal with. So why make it so 'mystical' up there?

 

[A Life Aloft]

You just have to first admit that there's some stuff that you don't know.

And that is always the issue and the point that he will never acknowledge. Doesn't matter the thread or the subject matter. It's always the same exact result.

 

[derg]

You guys have convinced me.

I'm going to call Engineering and advise them that Juneau is so advanced and the barriers to entry into the market are so vast and onerous, that they should immediately cancel plans.

Like the message from the closing scene from "2010: Odyssey 2":

"ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT (JUNEAU) ATTEMPT NO LANDING"

 

[Seggy]

Well, I mean, the other side of it is that if I ever slime-trail my way in to 121, I want to fly with Seggy. I'm sure he'd have a lot to teach me about how that kind of flying works. Might even keep me from killing my dumb self. I just don't understand where people find this necessity to have a giant Ego about what they do to earn money. There are a billion thing I don't know how to do. Getting the opportunity to learn how to do another one (or even talk intelligently about it) strikes me as a great thing. You just have to first admit that there's some stuff that you don't know. I've gotten myself some practice on that!

So you are criticizing my ego, yet you made statements in relations to Asiana accident that you are to good of a pilot to let it happen to you. So which is it?

 

[gne in prog]

If delta had announced service to a 1000' sandbar next to Yukon Pete's gold mine and reindeer emporium, a lot of arguments in this thread would be stronger.

 

[Seggy]

And that is always the issue and the point that he will never acknowledge. Doesn't matter the thread or the subject matter. It's always the same exact result.

Of course there are things I don't know.

As I said though, there was an underlying tone with some of the Alaska folks towards Delta's announcement. Did you not see that? Did you not see my counterpoints to what the Alaska guys were saying about their supposed 'great white north conditions'? Or are you so personally insulted by me that you just like to criticize what I have to say, just because?

 

[Boris Badenov]

So you are criticizing my ego, yet you made statements in relations to Asiana accident that you are to good of a pilot to let it happen to you. So which is it?

Both, I guess? I don't think I'll ever crash because I forgot that there was such a thing as airspeed. But there are a billion other reasons I could crash, particularly if I'm engaged in a type of operation with which I'm unfamiliar, or an aircraft I don't know, or in a place that has different rules/SOPs/etc. Saying I won't stall the aircraft isn't some claim of Sooper-Pilotdom, it's just a statement of what I conceive to be fact. I've had plenty of head-in-ass-maneuver moments, just like everyone else. None of them involved allowing the aircraft to stop flying because I forgot to look at the "don't die" indicator, is all. That leaves a rather huge range of possibilities for sudden death and/or rapid career deceleration.

 

[ppragman]

What @Boris Badenov and the other Alaska folks are missing/ignoring is that the conditions in Alaska they describe in the bush, aren't different than those based in the 48 deal with. So why make it so 'mystical' up there?

In isolation they are not different - but when was the last time you had to delay a trip because you couldn't get accurate information about if the runway was too soft to safely operate on, while on the same trip having to worry about unforecast icing, severe turbulence, and approaches that don't actually really help that much?

Seggy, you can believe what you want - you're entitled to that - I welcome you to come on up and go flying with me - you can see what it's like first hand, but seriously, I don't think you realize just how different things are.

 

[Seggy]

Both, I guess? I don't think I'll ever crash because I forgot that there was such a thing as airspeed. But there are a billion other reasons I could crash, particularly if I'm engaged in a type of operation with which I'm unfamiliar, or an aircraft I don't know, or in a place that has different rules/SOPs/etc. Saying I won't stall the aircraft isn't some claim of Sooper-Pilotdom, it's just a statement of what I conceive to be fact. I've had plenty of head-in-ass-maneuver moments, just like everyone else. None of them involved allowing the aircraft to stop flying because I forgot to look at the "don't die" indicator, is all. That leaves a rather huge range of possibilities for sudden death and/or rapid career deceleration.

Thank you for just proving my points and making yours against my points, unsubstantial.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Thank you for just proving my points and making yours against my points, unsubstantial.

Well uh you're welcome, I guess?

 

[Seggy]

In isolation they are not different - but when was the last time you had to delay a trip because you couldn't get accurate information about if the runway was too soft to safely operate on, while on the same trip having to worry about unforecast icing, severe turbulence, and approaches that don't actually really help that much?

Was a VERY normal practice flying the Beech at Colgan into the airports we went into Maine.

Seggy, you can believe what you want - you're entitled to that - I welcome you to come on up and go flying with me - you can see what it's like first hand, but seriously, I don't think you realize just how different things are.

What you have been describing are exactly the threats the pilots across the lower 48 deal with as well.

 

[Seggy]

Well uh you're welcome, I guess?

Do you really think the pilots of Asiana, Colgan, and Air France decided that they were going to go out an stall an aircraft? If it can happen to them, it can very easily happen to you. No matter what bravado you use to say it won't

 

[ppragman]

Was a VERY normal practice flying the Beech at Colgan into the airports we went into Maine.



What you have been describing are exactly the threats the pilots across the lower 48 deal with as well.

Really, you flew into gravel runways in Maine?

 

[PositionAndHold]

Well, I mean, the other side of it is that if I ever slime-trail my way in to 121, I want to fly with Seggy. I'm sure he'd have a lot to teach me about how that kind of flying works. Might even keep me from killing my dumb self. I just don't understand where people find this necessity to have a giant Ego about what they do to earn money. There are a billion thing I don't know how to do. Getting the opportunity to learn how to do another one (or even talk intelligently about it) strikes me as a great thing. You just have to first admit that there's some stuff that you don't know. I've gotten myself some practice on that!

That's all I was trying to point out. As some one with limited AK time, only a few years 121 time and corp time to south/cenamer, I was offering my direct experience of what both side of this we're trying to say. I wouldn't even try to speak intelligently of things I've only read or heard, let alone try to tell some one who does have the experience that they're even remotely wrong. As they say, I don't know, what I don't know. I worked in corrections for eight years and I've been wanting some one to tell me what that was really like, maybe seggy can help.

Edit: See you gents in six'ish hours. They're closing the door.